Many people consider that flow is the ultimate way to work. But it is not always easy to experience it on demand. What are the key ingredients for achieving a flow state in your work?
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 87. Is this a Formula for Flow? With Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
Today I want to speak about an experience that I’ve had probably over the last month or so, I was actually putting together a tender document, which I don’t typically do, and I had to really get stuck into some detail. And typically I haven’t done a lot of that type of work over the years because I spend most of my time advising and talking to people and not necessarily sitting down with spreadsheets and writing documents and, and pulling together information and, and doing that sort of detailed work that I would’ve done, you know, for many years growing up. And through the profession and when I first got the, the tender document and the rafts of paperwork that go along with it and the documents and the contracts and the, you know, the eligibility criteria and that sort of stuff, I just looked at it and I’ve just gone, it’s almost like I have an allergic reaction to it and go, I do not want to even look at this or immerse myself in it or even get into the detail. And you start to try and you get this sort of, this barrier of resistance and you read the words but you’re not really taking them in. You’re just sort of, it’s like you’re reading the same line over and over again as I was experiencing this sort of type, allergic reaction to doing something and then sort of, I kept forcing myself to, to like hold my feet to the fire, so to speak, and, and kept forcing yourself to, to, to be there and do it and, and stay with it. And interestingly enough, as I stayed with it and persisted and sort of the discipline of, because I knew it was the right thing to do, I knew this is the best use of my time was to do this even though I didn’t want to do it, o wasn’t feeling that I wanted to do it. Once I started to get into it, I could see a shift and then I could actually remember the joy that I get out of doing some of this work, the, the joy of immersing myself into spreadsheets. I know that sounds probably strange to people who have like that sort of numbers and spreadsheets and even the writing aspect of it as well that I really enjoyed going back and writing, which I haven’t done for a while. Obviously I’ve written a book and, but I haven’t gone through that process lately. And, it was just really interesting to watch myself go from almost this complete barrier allergic reaction to immerse myself into it and enjoying the process. And I just wonder why do we do this? Or whether I’m stranger, whether other people experience the same thing or, or whether you’ve experienced the same thing in regards to that process.
Sarah:
I actually think it’s a really interesting topic because first of all I have a really similar experience. It, it’s remarkable listening to you talk about it. I feel like, wow, I’ve never heard somebody talk about it before and I feel so similar. I also have that kind of allergy to things. But I, what I discovered, and I probably discovered this over the last couple of years, is actually I love settling down with a piece of work. As long as I’m not going to be disturbed. I can’t stand it if I’m going to be interrupted or I have to have meetings in the middle. So I always keep one day every week completely free so I can do those kinds of things. I love to kind of really get into something, but the thought of it and when I’m, before I get there, but what actually, when I was listening to you, what came up for me was something that I think’s probably a problem for lots of people. If I have a list of things to do and I look at them and there’s a piece of me that just wants to get them done. And sometimes, for example, I have to, somebody’s drafted some emails for me and I have to go in and check them and, you know, make sure that they’re really expressing what I want them to express. And it’s so easy for me to look at that and think, Ugh, I just don’t really want to do this. I go in on a kind of half energy and just check that it’s okay and if it’s okay it’s done. But it’s funny because that doesn’t give me any joy at all. It makes, it’s almost like it makes my to-do list feel like it’s everlasting. Whereas even if it’s a small email, maybe that’s reminding people of something or I don’t know, a welcome email to a webinar or something, I’ve noticed that if I sit down and really, really take it, like this is a significant part of somebody else’s experience with our business, it’s therefore important. And so I treat it as an activity that is worthy of, of kind of investment of time and energy. Even if it’s something very small, I enjoy it and it gives me energy. And that’s what I started to feel into as you were speaking is what you are talking about is how you turn tasks from being energy drains to being something that actually gives you energy. And I never really looked at it that way before.
Matt:
Yeah, I do get that. I still reflect on some of it and go, there’s still elements of it that I just really don’t like to do. And that’s like if I have to read pages and pages of legal contracts, I find that really, I mean I can, I’m good at it, I can read it, I can find things that, you know, I can find where all the potential issues and problems are, but I just don’t like doing that part of it. But then there’ll be other parts of it where when I get to write and I get to write about, you know, the things that we can do and achieve and how, and the creativity part of it, I really enjoy that bit of, of it and I kind of enjoy the numbers bit where you can actually sort of take that creativity and put it into something that makes some sort of sense and gives you a pathway to sort of seeing the financial benefits associated with doing so. All those things I can, I can feel the, the joy and the energy in that, but then in other things, I just go, oh, there’s just no joy and energy in it for me, now there could be for other people and it’s kind of like knowing and accepting that there’s something about acceptance in that.
Sarah:
Yeah. And I, I know, I know somebody who recently spent six weeks working on a spreadsheet, like it was a massively complex one and really, really got into it, it was a very big task. But somebody else, I couldn’t do that, that’s for sure. Yeah, I, I mean clearly, clearly there are horses for courses so to speak and we’re not all made the same and one person’s joy will be somebody else’s torture. But I think that we are talking somehow beyond that. We’re talking some, we’re talking more about that actually immersing yourself into something that you feel you at first sight you really don’t want to do.
Matt:
What, where’s the intersection or the crossover maybe in this concept of being good at something but not necessarily loving doing it compared to loving to do something and you’re good at it. So sometimes I see people being really good at something but they actually don’t get any joy out of it. And then there’s times where they actually do get a lot of joy out of doing something. So I often talk to this to business owners about saying, you know, tell me, work out what you love to do and what you’re good at and sometimes what you love to do and what you’re good at are not necessarily the same thing. And, but then there’s this sweet spot or the intersection between what you’re good at and what you’ll love to do is probably where you’re going to find the most amount of energy. And maybe there’s this sort of like graph or some sort of a, a thing where you look at it and you say, okay, well you’ve got two lines. One is what I love to do and what I’m, and the other one is what I’m good at. And there’s this intersection and the further you get away from each particular one are the, the middle point of that probably is where the least amount of energy is.
Sarah:
Yes, I’m sure that’s true. And the reality is in business that you often have to do things that you are good at and you don’t love to do. I know that ideally all of those are delegated to somebody else who loves to do them, but reality isn’t always like that. I like, one of the things that I find really helpful with that is to bring, like the things that I love to do are mostly like very creative or expressive things. So I to try to bring that energy into the things that I have to do or you know, that I’m good at, but I don’t, don’t love to do. So I’ve talked sometimes in the podcast about, you know, thinking about things like how do we add beauty to the world through our business. I, I feel that that’s a worthy thing to do. So if I’m doing something that’s a kind of good at but not love to, I can love it much more if I think of it in those terms, okay, let’s make this beautiful. And then it is almost like I’m bringing what I love to do into what I’m good at but don’t so much love to do. So I try to bring the energy of what I love into the things that I have to do or, or I find that helps me a great deal because otherwise, it can be a bit of a grind. It’s like it can be really hard work.
Matt:
It’s a good reminder because I remember having this conversation with you about bringing beauty to it and it is a good thing to, to consider and think about again because like what you said before, that there’s things that we don’t like to do but we actually are good at and we’re probably the only person that can do it in the organization. It can’t be delegated. There’s things that you know that it’s just not going to get the result you can and you might try to delegate them because you don’t want to do them and I do that a lot and, and then you know, you’re probably going to have to clean up anyway so you might as well just do it and in the first place. And I’ve never been a big advocate for doing things that you can delegate to other people. But I do recognize that there’s times where you go, you know what, you just got to buckle down and do it because you’re going to get a better result and it’s going to be more efficient. And so then just get on with it. And if you give yourself permission, that’s one thing I think giving yourself permission is only, as you say, it’s probably half the step of immersing yourself and getting some sort of enjoyment or pleasure from it. Cuz if you look at any task, a task is a task, right? So why do we get more joy outta some task compared to less joy out of others? Is it just this concept of immersion and acceptance because you are actually getting to a level, I can’t put words to it, but it’s almost like you’re, you getting to a level with it where it’s on the same playing field as you, as whatever you are involved in. You get a real sense of it because you’re in the moment. Maybe there’s something about being in the moment with whatever you’re doing rather than getting distracted with other things on your to-do list. Then maybe that’s part of why we do struggle with things with, I don’t have time for it so therefore I know this is going to take me three days and I’ve only got half a day to allocate to it. And so therefore you get too scared to get too fully entrenched in it because you know that you can’t give it the time and the love and attention that you could possibly give. So there could be something in that part of the conversation too, because I think it’s an important one to have because we have to, we face this stuff all day, every day and you want to enjoy what you’re doing.
Sarah:
Yeah, I think that thing about feeling split, like if you don’t have time to do something because you’ve got 10 other things that you need to do at the same time, what happens then is you feel split. To me, that’s one of the most unpleasant feelings in the world. And I spent years feeling like that most of the time I was, it was like I was chasing myself all the time. I was always multitasking in my mind. But the reality is you can only do one thing at a time with your body, so to speak. So I can be writing emails and thinking about something else. All that does is ruin both activities for me and I, I had to learn how to be in the moment or how to be really present because it became so unpleasant for me not to be. But I, I meet a lot of people who are literally, it’s like they’re doing one thing, they’re thinking about something else, they’re feeling something else and they’re all over the show and you can, it’s literally like they’re split into pieces and it’s a very fragmenting experience that is very, very difficult to work that way.
Matt:
I think there’s really something important in that statement there about the three aspects of it. You might be doing something, thinking something and feeling something. The three.
Sarah:
You’re trying to think of five things. So you are off, you may be running through, there’s one thing here and there’s one thing there and there’s one thing there and there’s one thing there. Like you’re running through in your mind a whole lot of things and then your feelings are chasing the things that you’re thinking about. So it gets even more complex when you’re really under pressure
Matt:
Because you’re attaching emotion to probably every single one of those thoughts that you’re having too at the same time. Which is creating that sort of exponential split as we, as you spoke about it. And so maybe the joy really is, you know, coming back to just being in the present moment for what you are actually doing because there’s something that, that is the joy that is the element of like, is it doing a spreadsheet? No, it’s not doing a spreadsheet that’s the joy, right? Is it writing words on a page? No, it’s not writing words on a page that’s the joy. It’s what you’re creating because of the ability of being able to be present and focused on one particular task and getting some sort of result from that. Because you are a lot more focused than what you otherwise would if you were split as we said before. And I think that moment of, of even simplicity and, and I’m just reflecting on with those words that you’re talking about there about why I felt good when I was going through that process compared to what I would normally feel like when I was resisting it. And it is, it’s because of the fact that I know that what I was doing was creating something great that I felt proud about, giving myself the space and time to be able to do it in, in a great way. Which as you said, if you’re doing two things at once, you’re not going to do any either of them very well. But if you just get that time where you spend it all on one particular thing and can focus on it, you know, you’re producing a great result, it feels really good and that’s the pleasure of it.
Sarah:
I think you’re spot on. I think it’s the, to me it’s the combination, it’s the being present or being in the moment and creating something. So I get the most pleasure when what I’m doing is contributing to something that I’m creating. There’s something that I want to experience that I’m, I’m building or growing for the future. So I’m creating something that isn’t finished now and the activities I’m doing are, are leading to that. If I have that feeling that what I’m doing is important because it’s part of what I’m creating and then I’m fully present with it, I’m engaged. That’s the kind of, that’s where I experience the most flow. So if it’s something I’m doing, which isn’t important, I feel like I’m doing it because you know, someone else has told me I’ve got to do it, that’s going to be much harder. It must be important for me or significant.
Matt:
That’s it. You just hit the nail on the head for me and it might be for you as well too, is that you are creating something you just said. A lot of my life is that I’m probably checking on somebody else or advising somebody else about their stuff, right? So therefore it’s, it’s theirs, it’s their creativity, it’s their work, it’s their task, it’s their thing. And so therefore a lot of the time it’s it’s your sort of outside, yes, you’re contributing and it feels good to be able to help people from that point of view. So don’t get me wrong, but, but it’s not your own piece of work their creating, like when you write a book, for example, it’s your work that you are creating that makes you feel good about it and therefore it’s not like you are checking somebody else’s work or you are reading somebody else’s work. You are doing it and feeling there’s some sort of benefit there that you are establishing, that you are creating and building. And I think that there’s some joy in that for me to know, oh, I actually did something and look, here’s a result and you can touch it and feel it and it’s your own work. There’s, I think there’s something really powerful in that.
Sarah:
Yeah, that’s really interesting, especially for those of us who are advisors or coaches or mentors or teachers or whatever because there is a lot of pleasure in supporting other people to get results, but it’s different from what we are talking about here and that’s why I actually love it when I can, even if I can just sit down and write a blog or something and I just put my heart into it, I never write blogs that are like, I’ve got to get a blog out this week, so I’ve got to do something. I don’t enjoy that. But if I can really again, be totally present with it and write the blog that I really want to write and find the image that I want to find, I don’t like being in a hurry, for example, when I find the image, it must be the right image for this, what I’m writing about that experience of actually creating something that I’m then going to share with my community that’s very different from showing up to answer their questions and to support their creativity. I, I, there’s validity in both, but I realize that my life is greatly enriched by my own creativity.
Matt:
Yeah. I think that they, I like both elements as you say. I like the teaching, the advising, the, the joy from helping others and serving others and inspiring others from that point of view. But yeah, I think it’s just as nice to actually do something for yourself too and immerse yourself and, and it’s like what you also said before, is that you’re creating something of beauty, right? Because whatever you’re doing, like you, you find the image, you write the blog, it’s a piece of work that actually there’s an art form associated with what you’re actually achieving. Even if it’s a spreadsheet. There’s still probably some, I still think there’s an art form some of that sort of type of creativity as well.
Sarah:
Yeah. And the, you know, you can play with spreadsheets. There’s a kind of beauty in changing one number and watching everything change. I used to do a lot more of that than I do these days, but yeah, there’s a kind of, that has its own, it has its own kind of beauty. It’s maths, its patterns, it’s numbers, and it’s part of that creativity
Matt:
And when it works, there’s not, it’s satisfying when things work that you’ve built and created, you go actually that, that works, that makes sense. And it did, it does flow and it does make sense, from those sorts of things. And the same with when you write something and it makes sense, you go, actually, that makes sense. And it resonates and engages and people go, oh well that’s, that’s pretty cool and I, I get that sense of pleasure.
Sarah:
Yeah, that’s the other really important part of it. This is one of, this is one of my pet topics at the moment probably is about creating things that get shared with other people. I can write something that’s just expressing myself or I can write something that is expressing myself and is created to connect with another person. And that’s a really different experience for me. There’s much more engagement when I’m actually connecting with people. So I’m, whether it’s writing or whatever it is that’s being created, I, for me, having that awareness that sharing is the next step. Like you create and then you share. So there’s a generosity in the creating. It’s not creating so I can release my own thoughts or whatever. It’s actually creating something that is of value to be shared with other people for a purpose, for a moment of connection and meaning and significance that really makes a difference. If there are so many people who have books that they’ve written in their top drawer that are never going to be shared with anybody. There are so many people who create things and it doesn’t connect and that’s not a criticism of doing that. We can do whatever we want, but the pleasure that comes when something that you do connect with another human being that there’s, you can’t even put a value on that. That for me, that’s, that’s what we do as humans. Really.
Matt:
It’s a value exchange really at the end of the day. And if I reflect on even writing the tender document, I wrote it, I feel like it’s a beautiful piece of work. It’s, I feel like it’s actually something where you can then give to other people that they say that’s cool and it’s gonna be hopefully, you know means that if we are able to achieve that and be selected for that particular program, we can then help so many people. And that’s really the joy that I get is, is helping lots of businesses and those sorts of things. But the, that sharing bit the sense, it’s the sense of pride that you’ve created something, but then also the ability to be able to share it and somebody else getting some benefit from that and joy from it too. That’s a real, that’s kind of the exponential greatness of it.
Sarah:
And that’s what business is all about actually. So that’s the beauty of it. And I don’t think it matters if your business is a widget kind of business or mine’s more I guess it’s easier for me to express myself or, to have that more creative expression. But actually any business is a creative enterprise all the time. Any life is an, is an act of creativity just to be a human being and to make choices and decisions. And I think that when we’re aware of that, so that we’re making choices with a view to the future, we’re not making kind of random or just like lazy choices. We, we’re present with the choices and the decisions we make and we have that sense. You talk about designing a business and we can also have the sense of designing a business that in a life that we’re also designing, we are shaping it, then we feel engaged in what we are doing and there’s a reward that comes from that. And to go back to the point I made right at the beginning, there’s energy that comes from that as well. So I think especially if people are feeling like they’re burning out or they’re really their energy’s weak or, or very volatile there’s something powerful in what we’re talking about here as a way to stabilize and strengthen your energy and just literally to have more of it.
Matt:
And, and it’s interesting, I was thinking when you were talking then about energy you know, even though I’m, I’m not a deadline crammer in terms of, I’ve never been one of these people that leaves anything to last minute. I’ve always been a consistent person and, and this process, I’ve done that, but I still, you know, was, I had about four hours sleep last night writing this particular thing to get in by the deadline. Now I’m tired but I’m not burnt out. So there’s a big difference between being tired and being fatigued and burnt out from what you’re actually doing. And I get a real sense of the difference between the two. And it really comes back to that energy that you can be tired without it being physically and emotionally burning you out because of the stress that’s associated with it, which has got to come back to the pleasure associated with what you’re doing.
Sarah:
So we’re talking here about, we’ve got being in the moment or being present rather than being fragmented. We’re talking about being creative, like feeling that you are creating something we’re talking about creating something that’s significant or important in some way to you. And then, there was one other thing oh, and then the sharing of it that it impacts other people. It makes a positive impact. We’ve probably almost got a formula there for…
Matt:
I was going to say, you just did my job. Normally I’m coming up with formulas. You just came up with a formula, Sarah.
Sarah:
Yeah, well it’s a, it’s a, it’s a formula for energy. That’s the interesting thing. We probably didn’t expect that at the beginning, but really, yeah, it’s a formula to make you feel, kind of its energy and fulfillment at the same time and joy is the word that you’ve been using all the way through. That’s so interesting.
Matt:
Yeah, it is. And I think that it’s good that, because it certainly helps to remind you for the next time that you go into these where you feel that allergic reaction come up and go, I don’t want to do this because it’s just not what I want to do. And yeah, sometimes you have to recognize it and you go, yes, it isn’t the right use of my time and I will delegate it to somebody else to do. And then there’s times we go, hang on a minute, no, this is the right place for me to be. I just need to give myself permission but permission’s only half of it. I need to then immerse myself in it and then go through that, those three sort of steps from a reminder perspective about the benefit of being in this, which will then create positive energy and an experience that provides you joy associated with doing so. So I think there’s a really big strong power in that to remind you the next time that you’re going into these scenarios, it’ll certainly help me remember it and stop getting an allergic reaction. And if I do, overcoming it quickly,
Sarah:
And for me when I do it well, it completely solves the to-do list horror. And when I don’t do it, my to-do list always feels like, oh my God, it’s just too much. I can’t do it. The minute I start to do this. It’s like my to-do list shrinks down to one or two things and there are a few other things that need to be done around the side, but they just get fitted in and everything kind of flows into place. It’s really interesting.
Matt:
Flow is such a great word. And I think that’s the experience that you have when you are just in the moment is that you’re in this, this nice flow. You’re just in this nice rhythm that you, you’re getting things done in an efficient, effective way that doesn’t feel difficult, that feels really quite simplistic and easy.
Sarah:
Yeah. It’s a beautiful experience actually. Really beautiful. I’m going to, I’m going to write something about this.
Matt:
Good. Excellent.
Sarah:
And share it.
Matt:
And share it. Exactly. So you’ve got the formula.
Sarah:
I’ve got the formula but I’ll write it down.
Matt:
Certainly, it’s been a good chat again today Sarah as per usual in terms of really starting with this concept of, of feelings and emotions when you’re doing things in business and, and some of the ways of recognizing that and then having a more positive experience with it, which is really what we talk about a lot, which is the, the, you know, it’s all about enjoying the spirit of business.
Sarah:
Great. Thank you very much, Matt.
Matt:
Thanks.
Sarah:
You’ve been listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. If you’d like some insight into the spirit in which you do business, a great place to start is by looking at your relationship with money. Find out more by taking the Money scorecard@moneyscorecards.app and we’ll be back next week.
