Who’s The Source in Your Business?

In every business and project there’s one person who’s the source or original creator, according to Peter Koenig, who’s been researching this topic for many years. When you understand the role of the source, whether it’s you or someone else, it’s much easier to create harmonious relationships and avoid conflict and misunderstandings. Here’s an article that articulates the concept of source particularly well: http://bit.ly/roleofsource 

Sarah:

Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 64. Who’s The Source in Your Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.

 

Matt:

Hi Sarah.

 

Sarah:

Hi Matt. I was sent a really interesting article recently about the work of a guy called Peter Konik who’s German, and it’s about the person in a business who is the source or kind of like the source point of that business. And what he’s saying in the article is that in any business, and we are really talking about small businesses, there is always one person who is the source point of that business, that it’s the person who he describes it as first really took a risk on the business. And sometimes when you have businesses with co-founders, it looks like there’s more than one of them. But what he’s suggesting is that if you really look, there’s always one person. And I see that in the businesses that I’m connected with, that there is one person who’s the source. And what’s interesting about it is that person tends to have, it’s almost like they have a special connection to the business. They know what needs to be done, they know the timing, they get the, the insights or the, the intuitive, almost like a sense of guidance and a sense of direction that nobody else has in that same way. And I know that particularly well because I’m that for one business and I’m not that for another business I’m involved in and I’m a co-founder in that other business, but I’m not the source. And I know it and I’ve always known it, but we got into lots of trouble sometimes because we didn’t understand this thing about a business having a source. And so I was trying to be a source that I wasn’t. So I think that this is a really interesting thing to explore. If we accept for the sake of today’s podcast that this is a thing that this is true, what’s the consequence of that for people who work in those businesses? For the people who identify themselves as the source in their business and also the people who don’t.

 

Matt:

Yeah. That’s an amazing thought process and one that’s really connected and resonated with me just by you talking about it there because I started to reflect upon my own businesses that I’ve operated over the years and, and thought about this concept of source. I think it is a thing like, you know, you said, let’s think about this. Is it a thing or isn’t it a thing? I actually absolutely believe it’s a thing and I can see why it’s a thing. And, and I, I look at it from a perspective, if I maybe unpack that for, for me personally, just like you did with your two businesses that you are heavily connected with. I’ve sort of had, you know, personal connections with lots of businesses over the years, some that I’ve consulted to, some that I own some that I’ve run quite significantly. And, obviously, you know, over the years in different forms, because I’ve been in partnership, I’ve been in a public company, I’ve been in different environments as well. So they all have this different energy and life of its own. So therefore this concept of source, I think applies to pretty much all of what we’re talking about. And, and I do believe, as you say, it’s in the small business category because I think once you get into a large public company, we’ve got, you know, public shareholders and directors and they become more custodians. I think of the, so there was a source originally.

 

Sarah:

That were family businesses. For example, he writes about family businesses or he talks about it, this is an article about him and that in family businesses there’s often one source and it’s not always the person you think it is. He talks specifically about how sometimes it’s the matriarch in the family who’s actually the source, even though maybe the father or the patriarch so to speak, is the one who’s out in the public who makes the noise. So he says, you, you actually have to really make sure that you clearly identify who it is, who kind of holds the reigns and knows where the horse is going.

 

Matt:

And it’s good to be able to understand your role and responsibility. Because oftentimes I question that in businesses say, well what is it that I’m making a contribution to this particular, and I think this will help to define some of that. And you also spoke about the concept of, you know, patriarchs and matriarchs and that sort of stuff. And I actually had, I watched a movie last week, Robin Williams in it and it was called Jack and it was an interesting movie and I was watching it from the perspective and I was watching the bond between a mother and her child and you could really see the bond that was there. Now not to say that fathers don’t have a bond with their children, but there’s just something that’s, you see it sometimes there’s this really special bond between a mother and a child that, that I think would be very hard to replicate between a father and a and a child. Not to say, and that’s controversial. I don’t want that to be the, the, the theme of this, but it’s, but it’s something that I, I look at. And that special bond that you talked about, because you said it’s the purpose, it’s a sore sort of thing that’s special bond is very, very hard to replicate if you are another person in the organization. Okay. Even if you’re the co-founder, like you said before, you’re the co-founder of this business, so technically you should be equal sources. Well really, I don’t see that there’s always equal sources and it probably also articulates or explains why there are so many partnership and business dissolutions, you know, there’s so many breakups of businesses because maybe there’s this tug of war around understanding your role responsibility, contribution, your source to the business. And if we actually become a lot more aware of that, it might settle us down because you go, okay, well that’s the contribution that I make because I’m not necessarily the source and I recognize I’m the source, but I’m this other thing that sits over here that makes it work from that point of view.

 

Sarah:

Yeah, it was actually really hard for me to begin with when I was invited to be a co-founder, which made sense. But I didn’t feel it inside myself. So I always felt inadequate because I knew that I didn’t have the ideas and that kind of, the driving force of the business wasn’t in me. And I thought, well if I’m a co-founder, it should be so clearly I’m not a proper co-founder. That’s what went through my mind. Once I read this, read about this source idea, it was like, oh, I can be a co-founder because I’ve been there from the beginning and I’m really useful and helpful. And there’s a, there’s a unique role that I hold in the business that even the founder, the source founder so to speak, doesn’t do in the way that I do it. It doesn’t mean that other people are not useful. They all bring their uniqueness to it. But I don’t have to feel bad within myself for not having that kind of, that driving and the feeling of the pace and of what needs to happen next and all of those kinds of things. Because, because I don’t have that in the same way. Whereas I can see that I do have it in the business where I am the source. I know what needs to happen, I know what I’m thinking about for a few years ahead and I might not be able to put it in a business plan. But inside myself, I know it kind of very precisely what are the really important things for this business. And it’s a very different feeling. And I, I think a lot of founder groups probably actually you are right, that they fall apart or they fight. At one point we had several co-founders and it completely fell apart because everyone was wanting to be a founder in a way. And they, we didn’t know this at that time and it, it caused some real pain, actually real pain, horrible.

 

Matt:

And if I reflect too, I also think about those people that are never the source. So you said that in one business you are the source and the other business, you’re not the source. And so at least you’ve actually experienced what the source feels like in terms of that connectedness, the purpose, the passion that comes through. You can see it like the bond, the affiliation with the actual thing, the business, the idea. And whereas there’s people, and I probably have to think about this from my point of view, I don’t know whether I’ve, I’ve ever been the source, maybe I’m always the person that actually makes a contribution in a different way. And maybe that’s why I’ve never felt a hundred percent connected to a business that I’m always there supporting somebody else’s passion and purpose. Now sometimes that can make you feel probably inadequate cause you’re going, well, I’m always playing potentially second fiddle. And that’s why ego gets involved and why partnerships dissolve because the egos rise up and say, well I’m no different to the, to the person that I’m alongside of because I’m a co-founder. But there’s not an acknowledgement of maybe as a source you always feel like you’re the most powerful person or you are the person and you are the one and so, therefore, everybody honors you and that particular thing. I know I’ve just said a lot in that.

 

Sarah:

Yeah, but that’s really important. I think that’s very important. One of the things that I read when I read about this whole source idea because it was brand new to me, was that many sources, I think they do think they’re the one, they don’t always know what they, they’re lacking. They’re often not even the person who can best articulate what they do, which is interesting, that, that kind of intrigued me that so somebody else could actually be better at explaining what, what it’s about than that source person and no source of a business can function on their own. And, and I think it’s very dangerous. So there’s, there’s an ego that can grow in the, the helpers or the, the co-founders, the, the other people who work around that source. There’s an ego there that can grow like, oh, we are just the same as this person and there’s an ego in the source which can make them feel like I’m special, I’m the one. Whereas actually the person who is that can only do what they want to do because of all the people around them. And so we all actually need to have good relationships with each other. But I think knowing how we fit in relation to this source idea helps us all to calm down the egos and recognize how we need each other. And I wouldn’t imagine that everybody wants to be that source person. It’s, it probably appeals to a certain type of person.

 

Matt:

No, but what it can do when you’re talking, it can create jealousy because the person that is the source or has the purpose and the passion is really connected with it. There’s an attractiveness to that because you think, oh wow, that’s pretty cool that somebody feels that particular way. And if you don’t and you’re still involved in the organization, it’s like, well, I don’t feel that way. And then there’s a jealousy because everybody, because it’s attractive, everybody gravitates towards the source because there’s an attraction there because they feel the way they do. There’s an emotional element there, there’s a bond. Whereas the other person or other people that are involved in the business that still might be co-founders aren’t that person. And so therefore that’s when this whole jealousy, ego thing can possibly kick in. I’ve seen that before too.

 

Sarah:

Yes. I’m thinking of some businesses that I know of and it’s really clear who’s the source. And sometimes I, I can think of one where one of the other, the original co-founder is a very, very good presenter and runs a really good business. And I can feel at the same time that he’s not the source. And I don’t know if there’s actually any issue in their relationship, but I can kind of feel what you are talking about. There’s a, there’s almost like a wishing to be that source person and knowing at the same time that you are not. Because if you’re not, you’re not. If you are, you are, there’s not, I don’t think there’s, you know, there’s nothing really to discuss about it. So that’s a kind of interesting dynamic, isn’t it?

 

Matt:

It is because where it can manifest itself into is resentment.

 

Sarah:

Yes. And that’s so, so I think one of the things in our culture is we tend to slightly hero worship source types of people. We hero worship, creative, very entrepreneurial people. But if I look, it’s funny, if I look in my business and through clients, I would say that in a way I, I’ve seen a lot of people on that very entrepreneurial journey kind of boom and bust. And, and I don’t have a lot of respect for that because I think there’s a much more responsible way of going about business. And these kinds of heroic entrepreneurs who you know, they build multimillion billion dollar companies and they started off, they didn’t have enough money to buy a pair of shoes and all this kind of stuff. It’s become part of a little bit part of our cultural sort of, there’s, there’s some, there’s a thing around it, but that’s just culture. It’s not true. It’s just a perception. And really what I think is a really good thing is that over the last maybe 10 or 20 years, we’ve seen more very, very successful business leaders, huge, large business leaders who are introverted or who are very geeky or who are not that creative entrepreneurial type at all. They’re systems types, for example. They work in a different kind of way. And I think that that’s a very good balance to that entrepreneur who’s full of flair and the source visionary person who’s got this kind of passion and fire about what they’re doing, but they’re not necessarily running a good business or being responsible just because they have that.

 

Matt:

It’s interesting, I reflect, I reflect back in a business that, you know, the business that I’m in today, it was originally a partnership with another gentleman and we were together for 15 years and we ran the business quite successfully together and grew it quite successfully together. And I often reflect, and it’s probably a different way of describing this source concept, I used to say that he was the first to have an idea. So he had the idea, he would always come up with an idea and he would come to me with an idea because he’s quite a creative, you know, person. And then, and then it was up to kind of me to bounce the idea off him. And we kept bouncing with each other. And what we were doing was effectively seeing if that idea had any substance or merit. And then like effectively, which is a commercialization process, is, is to commercialize the idea to see whether it actually can become a thing and you can create some value or substance out of it. And without that dynamic that went on, the idea would never actually come to fruition. And without the idea with the, with me who’s probably more of the person that would look at it from commercialization sense wouldn’t have happened either. So that dynamic of two people coming together with two different ways of thinking is such a powerful thing. And you, and you see it in I suppose large cases where you’ve, you know, with Apple, you’ve, you’ve got Jobs and Wasniak that sort of were together and that obviously it worked and it’s about, and I came to that realization that, you know, because as you say that the person that comes with the idea is a genius is, is seen as the genius is the creator. It’s the, and that’s where everybody sort of has that hero worship that you’re talking about. But really the person that then takes that idea and then runs with it and massages it and throws it up in the air and thinks about it and breaks it apart and puts us back together again and thinks of all the things that could or couldn’t happen for it, it needs that to get to where it needs to get to. And that’s why I used to see the dynamic between me and a business partner for many years work really well because we kind of knew that that was our, our superpower, our roles and responsibilities in the business is that, that I wasn’t going to come up with the first idea typically, but I could come up with a, I could actually take that and run with it. So there, there’d be still more creativeness and still more ideas that came from that original idea, but it needed the original one for them to bounce a whole lot of new ones off that particular point. But we do celebrate the source, as you say, a lot more than we celebrate the enablers for one of a better word. And maybe the enablers, that’s where the resentment comes in because the enabler doesn’t get worshiped at all. Or even thought I was a, as somebody who’s the entrepreneur or the creative. And, and maybe that’s what we’re starting to see, as you say, celebrated more that the, the people that are the systems people, the, the geeks for want of a better word, are the ones that are actually starting to create these bus good businesses and are known for that.

 

Sarah:

Well, the other thing that seems important to me is that actually being celebrated for being the visionary or something kind of probably looks cool from the outside, but I don’t think that it’s terribly good for anybody to have people think you’re amazing just because you came up with this thing, you’re not particularly amazing. You’re just doing what you do well, which is no more important or more significant than what you called an enabler in that there’s a book called Rocket Fuel that talks about visionaries and integrators. And I think an integrator is a great word because it has that integrity and wholeness in it, it makes the whole thing kind of work. So those people are not less significant. So that part for me tells me that to be in business, we are really better off if other people’s worship or lack of worship doesn’t affect us at all because we know what we’re doing and we are doing that thing. And it doesn’t matter whether you are the visionary, the source, or whatever, or you’re the person who makes it all work or who commercializes it. Like can you imagine me on my own trying to commercialize something? It’s like, would be entirely a question of luck whether it would happen or not, because I don’t think that way. I don’t think about things like that, that, and there’s nothing wrong with that and there’s nothing right with it. It’s just what it is that you know, we are different kinds of people. And so maybe from that perspective, you know, we need to drop, just let go of that, the worship thing is not worth a lot.

 

Matt:

Maybe that’s the reason why that, you know, we can, there’s a, there’s a thing to be, there’s an advantage or something to be celebrated in this concept of the source and understanding the source and saying, well, that’s a thing. Okay. And we go, that’s a thing. And we go, that’s awesome. That’s the role that you play in the organization. But equally, there’s other people in the organization that play these other roles that are equally important and probably don’t have the same emotional presence associated with it or that connection, that sort of type thing. But that’s okay. And those people are okay to continually operate the way that they do and not feel like second class citizens in their own organization because they don’t have that strong connection and feel like they’re not purposeful because they don’t have that strong connection. And I get that. I get that sense on a personal level where I can be in an organization and don’t feel the same level of passion and, and purpose and power historically. And so therefore I go, well, what am I doing here? What, you know, what do I do? What contribution am I making? And it’s actually quite uncomfortable. And you start to question your value and your contribution in that situation too. And I see this time and time again now I’ve, I, I’ve probably learnt that over the years, so I’m probably, it’s not as present today as it was. I know probably more about my, my contribution and superpower and value is. But over the years I have, I’ve seriously questioned it.

 

Sarah:

Yeah. That’s why I think that it’s such an important topic. It’s clearly, you know, that role is just one role and as you say, they get more attention often than others. But it feels to me exceptionally important for people to understand it so they know what it is that that person does actually do really well. Because I think the other problem is that other founders or other leaders in an organization, they want to try to lead in that same way, but they can’t, it’s that whatever they do, I heard somebody say, I think we were in a conversation with her the other day and she’s, she works in her husband’s business and she said to me, if ever I have an idea, it doesn’t work. The idea has to come from him because in that business he’s the source and she, she could just see that, she could see that when she tries to play his role, it doesn’t work. But when she allows herself to play her role, which works really well and is absolutely essential to the business, then that’s a whole different thing. If there’s a bit of noise, there’s a tractor somewhere not far away from here. I think. I’m sorry, I can’t control it.

 

Matt:

That’s okay. Yeah. And it is, and I think that it is coming back to emotion and ego and, and it comes back to value and contribution and all these things that are emotional things that we’re talking about here because, you know, source is source, contribution is contribution, value is value, but it’s what we actually, the emotion that we attach to those things that can be either great or destructive and disadvantage that, you know, it’s not a great way to go moving forward. So I’m kind of feeling like it’s good to label because it can help us then define and play to our strength. And know that value is there.

 

Sarah:

Absolutely, and a really interesting thing is that within an organization, especially for example, if it has departments or divisions, you can have a source of a division within that organization. So there might be a source for the business itself, but there might be a source within. And you can see that, you could see in some technical departments of companies, for example, the guy who leads the technical department is absolutely like his baby. And everybody knows that and everybody respects that and they know and they have a lot of power because of that, because they know the timing of things and they know that you can’t just rush this through, it’s not going to work. It’s like they, and they have an authority in the way that they do it. So it’s not that there can only be one in an organization there can be multiple sources. I think that’s important to understand.

 

Matt:

I think the word that used there that makes a huge amount of sense is the word authority. That you know that authority of something. So, you know, in terms of if you’re the product development person in an organization in a division and you’ve brought that thing to life, maybe that’s what we’re talking about with the source is that we are bringing something to life.

 

Sarah:

Yeah, it’s the person who does that.

 

Matt:

Yes. And that can happen in different forms in an organization. So when you’re the source of the business, you brought it to life. Okay? Now, now the reality is co-founded, you’ve had multiple people bring it to life, but as you say, there was probably one who conceptualized it in the first place in their mind. And then that then started to talk to other people about saying, Hey, are you with me on this? Or not with me on this. But they had the initial spark. And they become the authority, and it’s almost like they gave birth to it effectively.

 

Sarah:

I mean it does really come back to that in a way. Like, you know, you, you can’t have a baby without both a mother and a father, but you can give birth without a father.

 

Matt:

Yes.

 

Sarah:

You know, you only need the mother to actually give birth. And so there is something that clearly there’s a different dynamic and clearly not everybody has that experience. Like I didn’t have that experience. That’s just, you know, that’s what it is. We, different people have different experiences. So, and you will have a more whole feeling in a family if you have a functional mother and a functional father. Ge generally speaking, it seems that that’s good for families. Dysfunctional parents clearly not so good. And they play different roles and that not all fathers are the same, and not all mothers are the same, but there is something in that particular experience. It’s funny, interesting that the words go together, conceptualization, conception, and then giving birth. And so there’s something in that, and it’s like you said earlier, we don’t really want to pin it down to that too strongly.

 

Matt:

It’s almost like they hold the, they hold that thing, the truth, the energy, the, the thing they’ve created and the connection.

 

Sarah:

And the protection. There’s a way that they protect it with their gut, you know, it’s like they know that’s a little bit different from somebody who, who works with it.

 

Matt:

And that’s interesting because I’ve seen you violently protect your ideas sometimes. Yeah.

 

Sarah:

Not very politely, probably.

 

Matt:

Not in a physical way, but, but certainly verbally in terms of protecting.

 

Sarah:

Like, don’t touch that.

 

Matt:

And so, and, and that’s a really strong emotion that comes out that other people might not necessarily have that same level of strong emotion that’s attached to the thing that, that you feel very strongly connected to.

 

Sarah:

And I think the point, sorry, go on.

 

Matt:

No, I was just saying and there’s tests that, how you can work that out by seeing how strong somebody’s connected to something.

 

Sarah:

Yeah. And I think that that thing, knowing that somebody’s the source would help you to understand when they respond like that because it’s not always an appropriate response. It’s, it can come, like I know sometimes with me it comes out faster than I can speak, it’s like a mother protecting her baby from something that might not be any threat to it. But she doesn’t know that in that moment she protects. It’s a bit like that. It’s like, don’t touch that don’t, or don’t ruin this, or don’t mess with this. It might not be an appropriate response, but if you know that that’s what the source person is prone to, it’s kind of easier to manage I think. Because I’ve seen this happen in a business where people were touching somehow the, the part that couldn’t be touched and the the source person becomes so protective and you think, oh my goodness, what’s happened? It’s like almost crazy. It doesn’t make any sense, but it does if you understand their relationship with the idea. It doesn’t mean the idea doesn’t need to be tested. It doesn’t mean the idea is right. It doesn’t mean it’s going to work because the source person thought of it. It doesn’t mean any of those things. It’s just that there’s something they have in that innate connection which is unique and then they need all those other roles around in order to make, to make that baby. It’s like it takes a village, still takes a village to raise a child, to make that baby into a strong, healthy adult takes all the people around.

 

Matt:

And I think the word there also is respect. If, if you understand that the contribution you make is as valuable being the source as to being the enabler or the rocket fuel that you were speaking about before then there’s a respect. And therefore when somebody’s violently protecting this, their thing that they’ve created, the other person knows that hey, that’s okay. That’s, that’s what they should be doing and I need to respect that and understand it and vice versa where somebody’s trying to, to help them and move them along, that they’re not trying to destroy or take away the thing or that, that they’re actually trying to help them with that. Then there’s also a respect that goes on there. So I think that’s why it’s good to be able to identify and label it and, and define it. So people then go, okay, now I understand and I understand why you react that particular way and there’s a respect and an openness to that.

 

Sarah:

Absolutely. I think that’s the whole purpose of this conversation and is to help all of us to be a little bit more relaxed because it’s also really hard to be a source person who’s trying to share everything with everybody because you think that’s what you’re supposed to do. I’ve seen that happen. Just need to bring this little example in before the end where the source person was trying to kind of just make everybody else equal. But it, that also didn’t work because they didn’t own their own source, they didn’t own their own role in that, which is an absolutely critical role and it makes it weak actually. And it’s the whole thing starts to implode because the core of the business is then weak. So as the source person, you have to stand in that source role so to speak and not deny it. Like, this is all about all of us just recognizing who we are and also who we’re not. And there’s nothing right or wrong about any of that. That’s just the way that it is. And let’s work with the way that it is rather than pretending it should be something different

 

Matt:

And therefore honor it.

 

Sarah:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Very nice. I think it’s an interesting topic. It’s caused me a lot of reflection since I read that article. So it’s been, I’ve really enjoyed exploring it in this more conversational format.

 

Matt:

I really appreciate you bringing it to this conversation too because it helps to it just helps to settle things down too and, and make you aware of what’s actually going on or the dynamic that’s going on in relationships and why people are behaving how they are. And so, therefore, that creates a lot of empathy too because then you can actually start to understand why people behave the way they do and you can stand in their shoes and so therefore act appropriately because of that rather than just sort of, you know, being in conflict and fighting, which is obviously destructive in its own nature. So I really like it and I’m really pleased that we’ve had this conversation today because it, it, it does, it brings it from the back of the mind front of the mind to then be able to then know what’s going on in the dynamic of relationships

 

Sarah:

And I’ll put a link to the article that I read in the show notes in case you want to see what I was reading about and find out more about it. So thank you very much, Matt.

 

Matt:

Thanks Sarah.

 

Sarah:

Thank you for listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. We’ll be back next week with another episode. You’ll find the show notes with links and other useful information on our website, spirit of business.live. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends.

 

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