It’s likely that almost everyone feels inadequate on the inside some of the time. And probably some of the people who don’t are very disconnected from themselves. The question is what to do with it. Do you pretend you’re much stronger than you feel? Do you show your vulnerability at every opportunity? Or are there ways of managing your inner and outer experience that work better for yourself and others?
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 70 from Inadequate to Inspiring with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrum.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
I had an interesting conversation with another business owner the other day who’s probably somebody that I classify as most of the people that I’m in business with, I actually have a pretty good relationship with in terms of whether their clients are in business. And I was having this conversation with another business owner, and we started to get onto some personal matters, which is often the case when you sort of build a relationship with them. And we’re talking about how you feel in certain aspects of it. And one of the things that came up, which was really surprising for me, and it’s surprising when I talk to other people too, is this concept of how you actually portray or you think you, you’re portraying yourself compared to what you’re actually feeling inside. And what was happening is that, you know, I often, and I’ve said this to you before, I often feel a bit childlike. I don’t always feel like I’m, you know, necessarily somebody who probably conveys the status that I convey in terms of, you know, the position that I hold and the age that I’m at. Okay. So being 51, you think that you’d probably feel a little bit older than you do than being a child. And also you sometimes can feel a bit inadequate when you’re around other people because you think that they present something that’s more sophisticated or, you know, or you know, that they, they’re smarter than you or a whole lot of other things that sort of come up. And I was having this conversation with another person about the same thing. And the reason why I wanted to raise it today was that I was really astounded by the fact that this other person who I would put up, you know, as being very intelligent and very sophisticated, you know, older age you know, wealthy in many aspects of life that actually feels similar to me in terms of still feeling like a bit of a child some days. So yeah, it was just a really interesting conversation that I had and it sparked the thought process that I’d like to talk about today. And you know, I’ve heard the comment around imposter syndrome and I’ve heard these other things that we’ve spoken about before, but I think it’s just a really good topic to talk about. And we’ve touched upon elements before, but I don’t know, I never get tired of understanding these particular things better. And that’s why I thought I’d rise it with you today.
Sarah:
I wonder whether virtually everybody feels like that inside. Like, I wonder whether we all have those kind of doubts about ourself or feeling of, I don’t want to put it in terms of not good enough. It’s, that’s too stereotyped. Although it can feel, it can, you know, you can kind of lump it in with that, not good enough or inadequate or but I think it’s perhaps more subtle than that and maybe everybody has their own variety of it. It’s difficult because we never really can see so directly into somebody else’s world. We can only hear what they describe. But yeah, I really wonder whether almost everybody has it. And you know what I especially wonder about? I was interviewed recently by somebody, it was a really strange experience that I’m not really used to where this person all the way through the interview was actually teaching, trying to show how much he knew. Almost in a way that was covering over what I was sharing. And it’s fine. Like I don’t mind somebody doing that, but it was a bit strange. And then he was telling me, oh, I know all these people. I know all these really very, very famous people and I’m friends with this. I’m friends, friends with all these billionaires. And in one way he came over so confident and I could see that he was selling that confidence to people. And I might not be right about this, but what I wondered is, why do you need to tell me about all those billionaires if you feel okay within yourself? Couldn’t you just be you with me? You don’t need to prove yourself to me. I’m not asking for any proof you’re interviewing me. So, you know, you’ve got control here. And, and so I don’t know, it’s puzzled me quite a lot, but I feel that it’s in the same territory of what you’re talking about is what goes on inside us, what we present to the outside world and, and how we negotiate that. Is there a gap? Is there, can we just be coherent between the inside and the outside? What happens then? All these things,
Matt:
It’s really interesting because what I try to do a lot of the time is be pretty transparent. And so therefore I don’t like to build a facade to, you know, I’d call it the white picket fence syndrome that you kind of grow up and you project this perfect life where you have a perfect family and a perfect business and a perfect house and all that sort of stuff. And therefore what that does is, is tend to make other people feel inadequate because of the fact that they don’t have perceived what you have, but then they’re not living your life to recognize that things aren’t always as perfect as what they appear to be. And so I typically try to be pretty open and honest and transparent about the fact that, you know, okay, it might look like this is happening, but the reality is very different to that.
Sarah:
And does that feel completely real to you, that transparency? Does it feel completely real or do you feel like you do that almost to avoid people coming to the wrong conclusion?
Matt:
It’s a really good question. I think that maybe it’s part of me not wanting to make other people feel bad about themselves sometimes,
Sarah:
Because I bet lots of people do think Matt has a perfect life.
Matt:
Maybe.
Sarah:
Probably really. They have no idea what goes on inside your mind probably.
Matt:
A crazy world. And that’s exactly right. And, and maybe there’s this element of, so there’s probably multiple elements to answer your question is that there’s probably that element that you never want to portray yourself as being something that you’re actually not. And that’s this genuineness of transparency to say, well, hang on a minute. Yeah, I might present this, but really the reality is I’m this type of person just because I’ve created this world, and that doesn’t mean I’m anything different to what you are as an individual because I value the values of a human being regardless of status or regardless of you know, what you’ve achieved or accolades or whatever. And so there’s a genuineness of wanting to never ensure that people think anything different to that. So there, there’s this, it’s almost like a crusade that, that I want to make sure that people don’t, you know, don’t, don’t think that particular way because I can see the ramifications where people judge other people’s worlds and, and see inadequacies of their own world and the mental anguish thing can go on for them. And I see this in, you know, we spoke about one of the topics in our podcast about comparison of business to other business owners and, and how that makes you feel. And I hate that, you know, that feeling that people get where they feel quite inadequate about it and so there, there’s that one element I think there, but there’s probably also maybe there’s a level of insecurity as well, because that was the other thing that when you spoke about before this particular person was talking to you and they were trying to obviously talk about creating a world or an image for them about, you know, who they are and who they know and all that sort of type stuff. And I look at that and instantly see an insecurity that people feel that they actually have to, to do that. Sometimes we do that in business because we have to promote ourselves and we have to show validation and we have to, so you have to understand that sometimes you need to project that for that particular reason, but if you don’t and you’re doing it just because you feel like you need to from an insecurity point of view, I think there’s an element of that that goes on with us as well. And there’s probably a whole lot of of other stuff that goes on too that I probably can’t articulate to answer that particular question. But I, I certainly have this feeling that I never want to project myself to be anything different to what I actually am as an individual.
Sarah:
I have the same feeling and I, I am aware that even doing that kind of creates a projection. It’s weird. Sometimes I feel like being as open as I can be. I don’t think I’m a super open person, but I do try to be pretty open. I answer questions as honestly as I can when people ask me you know, my clients and things like that. And people always say, oh, you know, you are, you’re so honest and you’re transparent, and things like that. So I get that feedback a lot and it is something that I value a lot because of, because there’s such a risk of teachers getting put on pedestals. And at the same time, I can see that there’s even a kind of veneer that arises around authenticity or integrity. It’s almost like people build a picture of me as somebody who has a certain quality. And that picture that they have, which is quite truthful, actually stands between them and me rather than, so it, it almost clouds the very integrity that both I and they value. I don’t know if that’s, feels like a weird thing to talk about, but, but I, I can kind of feel it, it’s almost like, because it’s not very common for people who do the kind of thing that I do to be like that, it creates a sort of mirage almost of itself.
Matt:
And I understand that and, and it makes a huge amount of sense. And sometimes I’ll find myself feeling that. And then what I’ll end up doing is being self-deprecating
Sarah:
To try to break it down.
Matt:
I try to break it down. I say, well, yeah, but you know, I’m still a human being that that does some stupid things and, you know, whatever. Or I’m probably not the smartest person in the room, or whatever else I might sort of say in terms of being, because you don’t, that veneer you’re talking about, if you’re trying to be completely transparent and open and honest. And that comes across as being also perfect in some regard. Yes. And that’s not cool either. And so it’s really…
Sarah:
The other side, there’s another side to this, and I was reflecting on this a little earlier today. I was talking with a very, very good friend and colleague who tends to doubt himself a lot, and he’s extraordinarily talented. And I was thinking about like, why do you do that? You must know who you are. You must know the quality, you’ve had enough feedback in your life to know the quality of the work that you bring. And sometimes in the work that we do together, he’ll attribute the power of it only to me. And yet he knows perfectly well that it’s something that we do together and, and that he’s, he’s contributing. So I think that there’s a real risk also in that self-deprecating, like being almost like over human, which also goes the wrong way. I, I feel that the, the flip side of this conversation is that we must make some attempt to know who we are and what skill and talent we have and to represent that also, honestly, without any show. But not to put it down actually, to bring it forward really in service of humanity and in, in service of evolution and making the world a better place. And I think often we can go the other way as well. And then we get another kind of gap between how I’m projecting myself, the inner and the outer world.
Matt:
I think what’s in there and, and probably what drives some of my behavior and, and what I see from other people’s behavior, you know, whether you’re in business or not, is this concept of judgment. And because you, knowing when you speak about something or projecting yourself or, you know, especially when you’re talking about yourself, is that people are judging you constantly. Okay? So they’re all, they’re processing what you’re saying and judging you and in their own framework and lens and a lot of regard, what we’re trying to do is, manipulates a bad word, but you’re trying to help them frame you in the right way or judge you in the right way rather than in the wrong way. Because you never want to be judged incorrectly. And I think that there’s an element that, that go, that goes on, that you’re trying to support their process to get an outcome so they connect with you and they understand you as opposed to something that you are not. And maybe that’s why I see people work so hard at making sure that what they’re projecting is the truth. Now, there’s a lot of people that will project, that isn’t the truth. There is a facade. They want to actually have this veneer there. So they actively, they actively try to, you know, make themselves look better than what they actually are. And then there’s others that, that try really hard to do the opposite to that, to actually be really transparent. But regardless of what you’re doing, you’re trying to, people are going to judge you. What you want them to do is judge you correctly, rather than incorrectly.
Sarah:
So, you know, as I listen to that, I asked myself, what, is it my responsibility to manage somebody else’s judgment of me?
Matt:
And, and the answer is not.
Sarah:
Yeah. I mean, and you think about business in a way, of course, business is a kind of performance as well. There’s a performance element to it. And there’s nothing wrong with that. If we all just go around, you know, kind of like with our underwear on the outside, probably not much is going to happen. There’s no reason not to enjoy the performance element of it. And I think of people, my dad used to love bartering in Egyptian markets and places like that, and it wasn’t about the money at all. It was just about the sheer performance. It was just this enormous enjoyment for him. And I think that’s really legitimate. And so yeah, the, there’s, there’s something in here about the fact that we’re kind of playing and perhaps we take it all too seriously.
Matt:
The other thing at play, and we’ve spoken about this too before, but it’s important to, to raise it again, is this whole tall poppy syndrome that goes on, especially in Australia.
Sarah:
And New Zealand
Matt:
And New Zealand’s the same, is it?
Sarah:
New Zealand is very strong.
Matt:
And so therefore, you never want to be seen to be something that you’re better than you’re not because you get classified as a, you know, as somebody who is not real and, and, and people like to knock that down, or if you actually are real, they’ll still knock it down anyway because you, you seem to be better than, or different than, than what they are. So they feel better about themselves to knock other people down. And it drives me mad. I’ve got to say I hate it.
Sarah:
But you know what, I don’t think that that happens when people are really real. I actually think that if somebody is real about themselves, they know their ability and they use their ability in the best way they can, and they’re really sincere. I don’t think those people get knocked down. I think the people who get knocked down, there’s always a reason why someone gets knocked down. There’s always going to be something going on. There’s going to be some kind of arrogance in there, or some kind of self-righteousness. Or I, I know sometimes we see really good people get knocked down, but I’m sure that there’s something going on inside them.
Matt:
So where does vulnerability sit with this? Because we know about the, you know, leaders are seen to be great leaders when they’re seen to be vulnerable. And you’ve got Brene Brown that talks about that first type thing as well, and, and vulnerability shows a genuineness and an openness and a transparency about an individual and that sort of type thing. But then the flip side to that is, is that if you seem to be too vulnerable, then, you know you seem to be a strong leader leading the charge sort of thing where you, you seem to be quite, you know, inadequate and weak. So there’s this balance that goes on as well. So where do you see that sort of fit inside this concept of being genuine, honest and real?
Sarah:
I’ve been asked, it’s funny, people keep asking me questions about vulnerability at the moment. I’m, I’m actually not very keen on the word vulnerability because it, it means being woundable. I sometimes talk about being radically open, and by that I mean open from the root. So you, it’s kind of like your being is open. I think it’s important for us to have defense systems. You know, we need to be able to defend ourselves against people who are going to hurt us. We don’t need to sit there and just like, okay, go on, throw it all at me. I don’t care what you say. There are times when we need to say, hold on a moment. No, that’s not okay. And that’s putting up defenses. But we can do that in a way where we still stay open to life. I guess that’s the way I would describe it. And therefore you can say something that might appear not to be very open or not very transparent. Like, no, I don’t want to share myself, I don’t want to share this story with you. You wouldn’t say it that way, but you wouldn’t like, you have the ability to discern how open and how how transparent you are according to the circumstances. So for me, that radical openness is like an openness to what’s appropriate in this situation. What do I feel safe with? It, it allows me to take in more information, to work off more information than just, oh, I’m a person who’s really transparent. Yeah, because, because we’re still doing business for example, or maybe I’m in a relationship with somebody and being open or being vulnerable doesn’t mean that I just show them everything of myself without any, like, we’re constantly making choices. We, there is no such thing as just the pure me. It’s all a construct. It’s all a story in a way. And so I think we always have to discern what we share and what we don’t share.
Matt:
And you said before that, that we need to understand ourselves now. Yeah. I, I think we all struggle with that to, to agree, to understand really who we are and what we’re about and what we’re trying to achieve, and all those bigger questions that we actually have. So how could you possibly be able to present that if you’re not fully aware of yourself and these particular things anyway? So the other word, so I want to explore that part of it. But then the other thing that came up before is the word relatable. So how relatable are we? So if you’re sort of going off on a particular way of, of dealing with the world and, and people see it as one particular way and that’s foreign to the way that they are, how relatable are you to them? So this openness is about relatability.
Sarah:
Well, maybe relatability though is how interested are you in the other person rather than how much do you show of, of yourself? But what I, I want to come back to the other thing because I think that that’s really interesting. Yeah. Is it possible that the reason you feel like a child is because you feel that you don’t know yourself very well? Now I’m not going to say that anyone knows themselves that well, but I actually feel that there’s a responsibility that we have and especially if we are more in leadership positions to know ourselves. And when I look at the person I was talking about and see how I, I think it’s an indulgence, often it’s a kind of ego ploy to pretend we pretend to ourselves very, very convincingly that somehow I’m not good or there’s something wrong or I’m not enough. And actually I sometimes, I want to say, grow up, you know, you, you are really good at this. Get on and do it. Do the thing that you’re really good at and make the contribution and stop making excuses all the time. Now I, I can’t be as tough as that. And so I’m very nice and it’s like, you know, very encouraging and…
Matt:
I really love, I’ve got to tell you, I love that sort of statement that you said then, I love the forcefulness associated with it too because, you know, especially in business, we are leaders, you know, we have a responsibility. We want to achieve things and you know, so as you say, you’re good at what you do, just get out there and do it.
Sarah:
Yeah, just stop messing around thinking about yourself all day long. Now I don’t mean ignore all the warning signals that you’re completely out of balance and you’re getting sick. I don’t mean that, but I mean, as a reasonably self-aware leader, can you figure out who it is that you are, what you stand for, what your values are, what you’re trying to create in the world, and get on and do it because we need that far more than we need people sitting around contemplating their own navels. Now we do need leaders who have the capability for contemplation and introspection and all of that, but that doesn’t mean sitting around making yourself feel inadequate. To me it means asking really wise questions that enable you to grow your capacity and be, and actually be more relatable and be more connected and be more of a human being, like more alive, more really living.
Matt:
So there’s a balance between self-reflection confidence in getting out there and doing it. And I think that there’s, because you can’t completely ignore self-reflection because if you do that you’ll miss something.
Sarah:
Oh, then you become a complete pilic, basically.
Matt:
So when you say just get out there and do it, I think there still has to be this balance of accepting that there’s going to be feedback and you are going to get certain results that are coming in and you’ve got to question what’s actually happening and why things are turning up in your life. So I think that there’s
Sarah:
And that get out and do it is really for the people who are very reflective already and often see what’s wrong with them and spend quite a lot of, of time noticing what’s wrong with them. And they’re extraordinarily talented and they’re actually very self-aware. They’re probably very sensitive as well. And you might feel a little bit hot in the face, Matt, when I talk to you, when I talk about this. Oh, I don’t know, I just can’t help it. But I just, yeah, I feel like when you have, you’ve proven so much and you get such good feedback all the time. I, I understand why we can all indulge in the what’s wrong with me and why is this bit not working and all of that. But is it really helpful? Could we, can we be asking better questions?
Matt:
I think that’s a really good, a really good thought process around can we be asking better questions of, of our self reflectiveness and instead of saying why or what’s wrong or you know, what do I need to do? It’s, it’s more about as we discussed, or actually I think you are better to ask some of these questions than what I am in terms of the way that you, so what are the questions that we should be asking is probably a question.
Sarah:
Well, actually, Vishen Lakhiani, who runs Mindvalley, he has three really good questions, which I love. I’ve slightly changed the words, but so, so three really good questions for orientating yourself at least in the right direction I think, and I find these very helpful for myself are, what would I love to experience? What would I love to create and what would I love to contribute? And with, he does that with everybody who joins Mindvalley, from what I understand. He never talks about goals with them, but he gets them to reflect on those. And often they draw pictures. I’ve seen a board which has all these pictures on it of what people would love, I think he says, what do you want to, but I say, what would you love to Yeah, experience create and contribute. And if you think about it, let’s say you’re, you’re feeling a bit inadequate today.
You’re feeling like, oh my goodness, I’m not really sure if I’m doing this as well as I could. Or I’m not sure if this particular campaign or promotion or whatever project, like, am I really, is it really going how it could, could I, what’s wrong? And then you start to get into the what’s wrong with it or what’s wrong with me. If you instead of doing that say, what would I love to experience in this project and what would I love to create through this project? And what would I love to contribute in this project? Can you feel the, I mean it’s just such a change of energy.
Matt:
Absolute change of energy because you’re going sort of perspective introverted around history to looking forward. I see all those statements about looking forward as opposed to looking back. And so therefore you’re sort of saying here and now I’m looking, what do I want to experience? Because it’s, they’re all future sort of type statements, current to future statements. What I want to experience, what I want to contribute and what I want to create. You know, these are all, these are all wish statements, aren’t they really? When you look at them.
Sarah:
And you know what’s so beautiful about that is then of course you feel inadequate because you haven’t created it yet. So of course I’m not good enough yet. If I was already good enough, I would’ve already created it. So it’s like, yeah, it’s perfectly normal for me to be feeling a bit, help, I’m not sure where I am because I’m really not sure where I am. I’m on the way to somewhere and I don’t quite know if the next step I’m going to take will be the right step. And I might not know for several more steps. I might look back later and say, oh, you took a wrong step there Sarah, but nevermind, we’ll adjust it this way. So I think that in that frame it’s perfectly natural and normal to feel a bit inadequate. Because in terms of where we are going, we haven’t got there.
Matt:
But it feels like there’s no energy left in the, in the, the past and the negativity cause rejecting forward and you’re almost getting busy with thinking about the future as opposed to reflecting upon the past. Yeah. So therefore the past becomes irrelevant in that, in that thought process because you’re anxiously, I know on a personal level that I feel so much better when I’m creating, when I’m in creative mindset than when I’m in sort of reflective mindset of, you know, or trying to solve negative issues.
Sarah:
Negative reflective mindset.
Matt:
Yeah. Negative reflective mindset as opposed to this, oh hang on a minute, I’ve got this opportunity to create something or do something or experience something or contribute to something that feels good. There’s just so much more positive great feeling in that than there is this, as you say, the negative reflective.
Sarah:
And if you think about it, if you think about it, you know, the thing that holds so many people up, for example, might be their personal relationship. It might not be something about the business at all. But so easy for us to feel insecure in our personal relationship and say, oh, what’s wrong with me? I’m not a good enough wife, I’m not a good enough husband, father, whatever it is. But if we could actually do the same thing and say, what is it that I want to experience in this relationship or in relationship here, and what is it I want to create with this relationship? What do I want to contribute to it? It also completely changes that. And I think that that’s really important in business because so often it’s the personal stuff that makes us feel, you know, if you are feeling a struggle in your personal relationship and you come to business and you are feeling inadequate as a husband or as a wife or a father or a mother, and that, that sits, that can sit with you all day long and it eats away beneath the surface and that’s very damaging to the business.
But if we can shift that dynamic in the personal stuff as well as in the business stuff to me, we, we become real powerhouses in a way then and, and in a very relatable way. I, I think that’s how we inspire other people. It’s because we don’t sit around saying what’s wrong with me? Say, I’d really love to create this. And other people say, oh wow, I’d like to have a relationship like that, or, I’d like to do something like that. And it inspires them in a very natural way rather than in this like, I’m so special or I’m so not special. I’m just like you. Both of those are, are kind of positioning to manage somebody else’s response, whereas I’m getting on with the thing that I really care about. Do you want to join me or do you want to watch me? Or do you want to get on with your own thing? I don’t really care. You know, whatever’s the right thing. It’s such a different dynamic. It’s much more free.
Matt:
It is because it’s actually getting out there and living your best life. Yeah. It’s living the best version of your life. And you’re right. That’s the stuff that’s inspirational that people say, well why wouldn’t I want to join that? Okay, well why wouldn’t I want to be a part of that?
Sarah:
Yeah. So why wouldn’t I want to do my own best life?
Matt:
That’s right. And so therefore it becomes, and, and you know, it becomes very attractive. And really business when you look at it is about the law of attraction that, you know, you want people to join you to be part of what you’re trying to, to achieve. And they, and if you are living a very reflective, negative life, you know, one, you’re going to probably attract those particular people. But two, you’re not living a great life. But if you, if you’re living this sort of, hey, I’m really focused on this and want to achieve that and, and, and sort of creativity and positivity that you’re going to attract those sorts of people and those sorts of clients and those sorts of suppliers and all the elements and all the stakeholders that go along with that. And I, I see great versions of that throughout businesses. And I’ve had the pleasure and I’ve had the you know, it happened to me just yesterday, I was just reflecting with one of my clients yesterday who, who looked at the years results and you know, it was a year of, of Covid and I remember quite vividly about the conversations we’re having 12 months ago in, in thinking about wow, how, how there was so much uncertainty and what are, what strategies and what, what are we going to do? How are we going to get there? And if we get this result, that’ll be a great result. And lots of stuff. Well this business has got, it’s almost been perfect to script on saying, well what would we like to achieve? What would, what would a great year look like? What’s a great team look like? What all the, all the wonderful things that we have and every person in that organization really pulled together and it was the best version of themselves and the best version of the business. And I was so proud to be a part of that particular business and be advisor to that business because I, I sat there with them, you know, the team sort of, you know, and I said, Hey, I’m going to go back and, and, and replay all the conversations that we had 12 months ago to then talk about where we are today and just, and just talk about what an absolutely cool thing and a great experience this has been in a very, very challenging, difficult year. And I, as I said, I was just, I was so moved and proud of, of what we achieved and it was because of that spirit. Okay. Well that’s why you know, it’s no secret as to why this podcast is called the Spirit of Business because it’s such a great, it’s such a, it’s a great word because it underpins something that’s intangible but tangible at the same time and it creates x factor in the business and it comes from everybody having that particular attitude.
Sarah:
Yeah. Or how refreshing is that compared to where we started, isn’t it? It’s just such a different world and it’s, it’s not a very difficult shift to make. Any of us I think can answer that question or just start to answer the question, what would I love to experience? Really what you described, they said, what would we love to achieve? What would a great year look like? They’re just saying, what will, same thing, what would we love to experience? What would we love to create? And that orientation shifts the whole dynamic. And then everyone then within that, I think then there is really room for vulnerability, openness, transparency, all of that. Because then you’re on something great and you don’t know how to do it. Probably the leaders don’t know how to get there and the team don’t know how to get there. But together, you somehow make it. Then I think there’s lots of room for those qualities, but I don’t think they’re the qualities that lead the whole show. They are the way that, that’s just being human as you go in the direction you are going. And then, then that’s a very different dynamic.
Matt:
I agree. Well, I think that this has been a, a wonderful chat once again and very it’s been a great journey again. Because we go from posing a question or a feeling or a thought and we explore it all the way through to get to a completely different feeling at the end of the conversation. And I, I, I absolutely value the opportunity, the ability to have these conversations and be able to then share them through a podcast.
Sarah:
Yeah. Because it, we always end up where we didn’t expect, I could never have known the answer at the beginning. It’s, somehow it emerges through the conversation. And I think that’s a really important thing because in a way, this is a model of what anyone can do in any conversation where you start off with a question and you really don’t know. But if you ask questions in a positive way around it, you do get answers. You get, and, and look, I could say lots of the things I’ve said in here, I’ve said before, but if you asked me that question at the beginning, I wouldn’t come up with that answer. It’s so, it’s doing it again and again and again and again and again. Always making this, this shift. And, and so bringing it into somewhere fresh, it feels so refreshing. That’s what I love. So thank you very much, Matt.
Matt:
Thanks Sarah.
Sarah:
Thank you for listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrum. We’ll be back next week with another episode. You’ll find the show notes with links and other useful information on our website, spirit of business.live. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends.