Many business owners groan when they hear the word patience. It’s so hard to be patient when there’s a lot to get done and pressure to grow as fast as possible. So where does patience come in? When is it useful and when is it unnecessary?
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 65 Is Patience Really Useful with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
The topic today that I want to speak about is the word patience and it’s something that I’ve personally struggled with for many years. And it popped up again with a couple of conversations, a couple of examples. And one I was talking to you about the other day and you were talking about soil and you’re talking about rejuvenation of soil and it can take 10 years to rejuvenate soil for it to be ready to be used again in, in some form or capacity. And I’m thinking to myself, 10 years is a very long time to wait before you can actually then go and do something with that, that land that you have. And I see this also in business a lot where, you know, things might take one or two years to develop something. And even in property development, you know, it can take two years for a council to actually approve plans and permits, which seems to be a long period of time to be able to go and do something. And I often question and I’ve learned this over the years because I used to always push, I push, I push, I push to try and get results and get things done quickly and that sort of type thing. But pushing it also creates stress on things. And I’ve started to learn around not pushing to see whether there’s a natural timing of things or a natural rhythm or a natural flow, because that seems to be a lot easier than when you push hard. But then sometimes I get into this situation where I feel like, hang on a minute, I feel like I’m wasting time or I’m not progressing things, so it’s a really interesting sort of emotional power play that I have with my brain around patience and time and the natural flow of things. And I’d like to explore it a bit further because I still struggle with it today in terms of thinking about, you know, when do you, when do you push, and when do you sort of let the natural timing occur of things?
Sarah:
It’s such an interesting area because when I was listening to you I was thinking about it, a friend of mine once told me that he, he talked about something like, I can’t remember what he called it, something like a soul ray or a spirit ray or something, I can’t remember. But he said mine was patient manifestation. And when he said that I thought, what does that mean? I don’t want to be the person who does patient manifestation, but when I watch myself in my own life and with clients, I see that it’s actually a perfect description of how I operate. And what’s interesting is that there’s a kind of patience that I found I think that is really powerful, which is very often different from that, oh, you’ve just got to wait because that you’ve just gotta wait. You’ve just got to be patient is is really annoying. It’s like, that’s a horrible kind of patience. And at the same time, I think perhaps, especially because I trained with Chinese masters and so they were always, we were always looking for ways to get things done quickly. There’s something very interesting to explore there about how you can get faster results, but without pushing or forcing, I feel like I spend a lot of time exploring that with people to see how we can do that. And I just wanna say on the soil thing, it’s not actually that it would take 10 years to be able to do anything with the land. We’ve already, after six months we’re doing something with it. It’s pretty poor, what we can do? But there’s something happening. But what people, what I’ve heard people often say is that to build soil, which anything will grow in, that’s just totally fertile. It takes about 10 years if your soil has been degraded. Like most soils in Australia are apparently. So there’s a very patient game in there, but it’s a patient game of doing things all the way along.
Matt:
When you were talking then, I was also thinking about the word patience and we are taught it as children. We, and we teach our children to learn patience because a child will typically be, that’s their, their right I think in terms of the way that they want things now and they want, you know, that they don’t understand why they have to wait for things and from that perspective. So as a child, we are wired not to be patient and not to wait for things. And we are taught that and that’s, there’s got to be something in that in terms of why we think that it’s appropriate to teach our children to wait for things or be patient.
Sarah:
There’s something that one of my friends talk about talks about, which he calls the gap, which is the space between the moment when you wish for something you have in your mind like, oh, I would really love that to happen, or I’d love to create that, or whatever it is. Something that is a genuine, really spontaneous, heartfelt wish and the time that elapses until that wish is fulfilled, and the gap can be sometimes a few minutes or a few days and sometimes it’s many years before something’s fulfilled. To me, that’s the place where patience is really useful because I meet lots of people who get impatient. They’ve said, oh, I really want this thing, whatever it is, I really want a great result. Well I’ve, we’ve done some work like that together. I really want this very good legal result. I remember once when you had some legal stuff, but if you get fret, if you start to fret as soon as you’ve said that. It’s not happening, it’s not happening, it’s not happening. It changes the energy around you. So that I think is a place where patience is really powerful. Mostly what we teach children is the opposite of that, which is actually just, you can’t have it until it’s convenient for mummy or daddy. It has nothing to do with nature or natural rhythms. It has nothing to do with the child learning how to kind of open up to what they want or any of the natural principles that might be involved. It just, it basically means wait until I say so. And that to me is the worst kind of patience to teach.
Matt:
Exactly something that you said about the word gap started to resonate with me because the gap is the space, it’s the time that occurs between sort of wanting something to occur and then achieving for that. But during that process of the gap, you’ll go through, you know, a whole lot of thoughts. Sometimes we’ll be, well, do I really want that? Is that something that is right to want? And so you go through this learning education, questioning thought process that actually happens and you know. And maybe that’s the benefit of the gap is because it really does create a process for you to think further about the idea of a thought, especially in business if we go back to that is that you think, okay, I want to achieve this in the business and I want to and that’s going to take X period of time. And so then that’s going to create the gap. And while you are creating that gap, you’re starting to think about, well is that the right thing for the business? And you start to gather more information or more data about things. And so maybe if we look at it from the gap point of view and see that as a real positive experience and part of the journey that there could be something in that. In terms of the word patience,
Sarah:
The way I see that is that the gap is actually, because I look at everything from the point of view of our energy. We have this wish, which is something we are projecting out into the future or we are looking at the future and bringing it back here, but we are not really up to the level of that wish yet. It’s like our energy doesn’t match the wish. If it did, we wouldn’t be wishing for it, we’d already have it. So I don’t wish for what I’ve already got, I wish for what I haven’t got. So I see the gap as the time where you’re upgrading your energy to the point where you actually get that thing or that thing happens. Because if you think about it, let’s say you are running, I don’t know, a half a million dollar turnover a year company and you want it to be a million dollars a year, that takes a different kind of energy and a different capacity. It’s not the same person who can do both of those things. So there’s growth that needs to happen to go from one place to the other. And that doesn’t for most of us happen overnight. It takes us time, it takes learnings. We often have to let go of old ways of doing things. And when we’re letting go of them, often we are thinking, oh my god, I can’t, you know, I can’t do this thing I need to do or we’re trying to do it the old way and it just doesn’t work anymore. It feels like, ah, all the things I used to do don’t work. Yeah, they would work for a $500,000 company but they won’t work for a million dollar company. You actually need to do things differently and that’s very uncomfortable because you don’t know what they are. If you knew what they were, you would already be doing them, you’d already be good at them. So there’s a lot of learning and growth that happens as we expand our capacity in any area of life. It’s not just about money.
Matt:
I really like that concept of upgrading because I see this time and time again with businesses that want to grow up. Okay, they might, you know, in terms of that concept of saying, well I’m, and I do talk about the phases of business similar to phases of your life going from a child to a teenager and usually I call it an awkward teenager because as you are going through this really awkward yucky growth period where nothing seems to be going right and then you come into young adult and then mature adult sort of type principle and things become a little bit easier for you. So I do get that constant, that thought process about upgrade because as you say, if you want to go from a half a million dollar business, and I’m not saying a million dollars, I’m saying if you want to go to a five or a 10 million or a $20 million business, it’s a very different, a very different energy. It’s a very different capability. It’s a very different circumstance to go to that next level or to go to 10 levels above where you are.
Sarah:
And that’s a different kind of business almost, isn’t it?
Matt:
Absolutely.
Sarah:
You can’t do the same things 10 or a hundred times more. You actually have to do different things.
Matt:
And some people don’t have the capability really of actually achieving that desired outcome by themselves. And they need to actually surround themselves with other resources or other people or other, you know, to be able to upgrade. They may even need to be personally upgraded in terms of the way that they think and operate as well. So I see this time and time again where people hit this natural ceiling. And that’s another thing too that I see people get to this natural capability level or, or ceiling and some people don’t progress beyond that. I see this in team members, employees, I see this in business owners that I go, that’s as good as it’s gonna get for those particular people unless they’re consciously enough going to push through that barrier by doing something different and recognizing that they’ve hit that ceiling and sometimes that, you know, they’ve upgraded to, you know, version 2.5 and they can’t get to version three because that’s, that’s it. End of life cycle.
Sarah:
Well then that’s where we really talk about patience because going from version 2.5 to version 3.0, let’s say that you can get there, you’re not an end of lifer. Is it? That’s a very big change and it does take patience because I think it takes patience to deal with all the mistakes that you make in that shift. Because on the whole, because you’re still trying to do things at the version 2.5 level rather than the 3.0 level or if you try the 3.0 level because someone’s told you this is what you should do. Matt’s come along and said this is what you should do if you want to be a 10 million company but you don’t know how to do it because you’ve never done it before and he can’t do it for you because that’s not his job. So you actually have to do it and then that’s clumsy and you make mistakes and you learn and all of that. To me, patience in there is critical because it’s so easy to think, oh my goodness, I’m never going to make it or I’m no good or I’m no youth or all kinds of things. And I imagine you spend a lot of time effectively saying to people, keep going, it’s all right. Follow the process, you are going to make it, you’re not completely useless and all of those kinds of things.
Matt:
Yeah, certainly the self-doubt thing comes up for people that hit a ceiling and then try and push through that ceiling and if it doesn’t work immediately they instantly think, oh well it’s, it’s not going to work and their old fears and a lot of the old wiring sort of kicks into gear and that sort of type thing as well. So certainly that can be an issue. Some people don’t even recognize that they’ve actually hit their ceiling and that’s, and they have to push through that. Some people do hit, hit their ceiling and recognize they’re got to push through it, but then they don’t get enough confidence from early wings that they think they can actually do it and they’ll regress back. And then there’s some that will just have this relentless pursuit of pushing through the barrier. But that takes a lot of energy and a lot of effort and a lot of patience, which is what we come back to. And, and then also a lot of self-confidence to say, well I know that I’m going against the natural force of something to break through something to get to where I need to get to. And that’s when you start to go, but is this right? Am I on the right path? Am I actually pushing something that I shouldn’t be pushing? Should I just be letting the natural flow of energy occur and therefore it will just come in time? Like this is where it becomes really, really tricky because this is the, the flex that I’m talking about at the start of this conversation is to, when do you push and when do you, when do you just sit and let the natural flow of energy occur? And this is, that’s that real dilemma that I find that a lot of business owners can be in.
Sarah:
I think that one of the things we need to realize is that if we have a vision or something that we want, some wish we have or desire we have or goal and it’s out there in front of us, but it’s not necessarily gonna happen because we wanted it. And that’s what brings that question, should I push? And a lot of people when they start to experience doubts or they lose confidence because it’s unfamiliar, they step back like you say, and then it’s very unlikely that they will make it. But the question that is a really big question for me always has been for a long time is, is there an alternative to that pushing? Because I know the price of the push, which is usually a health and wellbeing price, at least a mental health price, often a family price many, many others and pushing of itself, forcing creates a force against you so it actually creates more resistance. So, there’s a genuine price and energetic price to pay for that. And what I can see so far from my own experience and with other people is that the thing that’s most powerful in this is that sense of direction. Like if I know inside myself that this thing is going to happen, I don’t have to control the pace so much. If I’m full of doubt, like, oh, is it going to happen? I’ve got to push to make it happen. Or if I make it all about me, it’s, I’ve got to do it all, then I’ll have to take the forcing route in order to do it. But what I try to cultivate in myself nowadays, and this was a huge shift for me because I didn’t have that, is to have this very, very solid sense of direction. Like I’m always going in that direction. So there’s a kind of knowing that these things are going to happen and if I can do that, it’s easier for me to let go of the details I don’t need to push because, if I know it’s going to happen anyway, it’s easier for me to go with the pace of nature and there’s something in there because then when we’re not pushing, actually sometimes things happen a lot quicker than you expect because you’re not putting up all that resistance. The thing about the pushing is you get a habit of putting, of kind of working with all this resistance and then when things could slip through more easily, you are usually still pushing and you miss all the fun of it.
Matt:
So it’s a real confidence and trust.
Sarah:
It’s a very light confidence, it’s not that heavy forceful confidence. I haven’t seen that that works with people. Anyone who comes, I’ve, I’ve watched people and they say to me, Sarah, I’m certain this is going to happen. The minute I hear that, I know that it’s not gonna happen. Literally I can hear in the energy when somebody says, I’m certain there’s a kind of certainty because I recognize it in people. There is a kind of certainty, but you will never say it with that kind of certainty. This sounds a bit tricky, but it really is like that there’s a quiet inner knowing which never expresses itself as I’m certain, but it’s more like you just know that that person knows where they’re going.
Matt:
Yeah, the quiet confidence. I can really feel that when you talk about that sense of quietly knowing that something and having this strong trust Yeah. In the flow of energy. And there’s times that in business and in life where I’ve had that experience where you, you are in this, I know it’s going to happen, it’s a question of time. I’m just going to sit in the old slipstream of the you know, of the flow of the tide or something like that. I’m just going to be swept along nicely. I’m not going to have to swim that hard to actually get there. And there’s this really great feeling you get from that. And then there’s other times that you feel like you’re swimming in mud or whatever, as opposed to, as opposed to swimming in the flow of the water. And so it, but sometimes being at the other end of it where the swimming in the mud was still worth it for the outcome that you might have got.
Sarah:
Oh yeah. I think most of, I think most of my life is spent helping people with the mud. Everyone’s fine when they’re in the slipstream. But with the mud part, the thing about the mud is it’s really easy to say, oh, this is so difficult, I’m going to stop. Or this is so difficult that I can’t keep going forward. Whereas people who even really slowly make their way through the mud, I grew up on a muddy harbor and we used to like suck our legs out of the mud to put them back in again because it would be up to our knees or up to our thighs, this thick black mud. So I know, I really know what it’s like to walk in that kind of mud and you, of course you can’t walk normally at all. It’s unbelievably slow, but it’s like if you do that, the tide will come in and at a certain point the tide will make you lighter and suddenly you’ll be back in that stream again. But the people who went back onto the shore didn’t, they’re not there, you know? And so I think that how we deal with the times when we have doubt, fear, lack of confidence, complete despair, like I’m a useless case. I’m hopeless, whatever, all those terrible thoughts that we can direct towards ourself, it’s so key. And that for me is where patience comes in. Patience and kindness and gentleness and love, things that stop you from torturing yourself and just allow you gently to keep putting one, pulling one foot out of the mud and putting it in and, but you just keep facing in the direction you’re going
Matt:
And using that analogy the fear is that the tide will never come in and you’ll be exhausted. And you’ll end up not making it. And so, therefore, were you better off to retract and fight another day in, in back on shore again to find a year pathway? Or are you better off to push forward? And this is where the dilemma comes in all the time around this push and pull scenario.
Sarah:
I think that the people who get into most trouble are the people who try to fight the mud. So they try to run in the mud or go as fast in the mud as they would go if they were going with the tide. That’s where it gets really exhausting and dangerous. And then by the time the tide comes up, you’re stuck. Like you can’t even, you can’t swim. Like, so that, that’s really bad. If you go back on the shore you kind of, you opt out completely. At least, you know, it might look, if we talk about the shore, you can just jump in the sea when the tide’s high. But in my experience and watching people and being there beside people when they go through these things, there’s something that happens to the spirit, to those of us who are able to handle the mud that doesn’t happen to the people who are lying on the beach in the sun. And that spirit is what enables your capacity to grow at a significant level,
Matt:
Which makes sense. So there’s a kindness. So first of all, there’s a recognition that you are in the mud, okay? That you’re not on dry land running that, hang on a minute. No, the conditions have changed and I’m actually in mud, so I actually have to slow down and recognize where I’m at. So therefore this is recognition of kindness to yourself because you’re not trying to run as fast as you possibly can on the shore to fatigue yourself. You’re recognizing that things are going to be slower than what you actually anticipated, that they’ve been recognizing that it’s going to take you longer. However, it’s still important to be in the mud and continue to move forward. So, so there’s kind of this recognition of being kind to yourself, checking in to see if is this still something worth pursuing. So that, going back to that gap conversation we spoke about before, is, is the gap allowing you time to work at, is this, what I want? Does it come at a cost? Because we know that turning your business from a half a million dollar business into a $50 million business comes with sacrifice or it comes with a different lifestyle or a different life to get you there. And what price are you prepared to pay for that if you are or if the change of circumstances that creates that? So therefore it allows you to have that time where you’re going through the mud to assess if that’s the right, right direction. But you need to slightly deviate to get you to a different place. So the, so that recognition, I think is, and the patience associated with that and the kindness to yourself to recognize that’s what’s happening and not fighting really hard against that. I can feel that when you’re talking the way you’re talking
Sarah:
And not beating yourself up for going slowly or for, for it being difficult at the moment, it’s perfectly normal for it to be difficult sometimes, like it’s normal for it to be fast, it’s normal for it to be slow. They’re just normal things. Fast and slow are both normal. But we think fast is good and slow is bad for some reason. But think of all the good things that you do when things are going slowly and all the stuff that you learn. Like if I look back, I remember when I always used to think that I should be much more successful than I am. And when, if I look back at it now, and I think there’s no way you could have been Sarah because you weren’t, you had so many things you needed to learn. You couldn’t communicate the right way, you couldn’t organize things the right way. You didn’t have the skills that you needed, you didn’t have the capacity. There’s no way you could have been where you thought you should be.
Matt:
And so the time is necessary and time is, is patience really.
Sarah:
Well, and this comes into values really. I for sure I could have run a company maybe that was making more money, but that would’ve been at the price of a whole lot of other things that were important for me. So I think that’s, I think that’s the thing that we, I don’t personally like to think of it in terms with, so what’s the price for me? It’s what do I want? I want this and I want this and I want that. So it’s not, I want this at the expense of that. I don’t want this kind of success at the expense of my health and wellbeing. That wouldn’t make any sense at all. But is there a way that I can have this level of success that I want or impact or whatever it is and health and wellbeing and something else, no doubt. And something else. And that might slow me down, but I would be happy to be slowed down if that and, and, and version is the result. Like that is worthwhile to me.
Matt:
I talk a lot about and or when I’m thinking about business especially. And I think that’s a really good way of assessing whether something is worth pursuing or not in terms of, and how fast and how far you’re prepared to do because it’ll come at a cost. And what you are saying is you are recognizing that you’re not prepared to compromise certain aspects. And one of them might be health and wellbeing. So therefore it’s that and that and that. And I’m not prepared to compromise on these things, so therefore I recognize it might take me longer to get to where I want to get to because it’s actually the full dynamic of things and the balance of things that you’re trying to achieve. It’s not just being very one-directional and one-dimensional around achieving a particular thing. And I think recognition of that’s really important. Because it can then start to go, well actually the timeframe’s probably right and probably relevant. So the two years that you thought that’s going to take a long time, you’re going, yeah, but the two years is going to be a lot more enjoyable than if I had pushed it in one year and got there in one year and then had a health episode for the following year. So therefore it did take me two years but over, you know, but that makes sense.
Sarah:
Two years at a price. Oh, the other thing is, it’s so funny when you think about it, we talk about getting there, but getting there is getting where, I mean.
Matt:
Exactly.
Sarah:
It’s like, life is not like sitting in a really, really boring car journey so that you can arrive at this really, really, really exciting city where all the lights come on and all the girls are dancing kind of thing. Life is not actually like that, life is something that we have to live every single day. And I think that this idea that it’s all about getting there whilst I’m being somewhere completely different is it’s kind of nonsense in my mind. The more I can bring there to here, if the more I can experience now what I wanna be experiencing there, the more all of it that journey. People like to talk about it as a journey. I think it’s not a very good analogy actually because journeys are, journeys seem to be all about the destination, but life is not about a destination. The only destination I can see in life is that you’re going to die. And if we make it all about that, that’s a bit weird. So let’s make it all about life and then that’s every day and it’s here and now,
Matt:
Which is, is spot on. And I see this a lot in business owners and because the utopia is to realize the value of their business by a sale or an exit at some particular point. And so they’re sacrificing, sacrificing all the way through for that holy grail, the pot at the end of the rainbow. And look, that’s great that if then you’re going to be able, you might want to make a short term sacrifice to be able to then get to that particular point. Some people are prepared to do that, to sacrifice for their families because the fact that they’re able to earn money so they can support their family. And, and so I said there’s a, there’s a lot of nobleness associated with that and there’s sometimes people sacrificing themselves for, for a benefit. Okay. So there’s, there’s that element of it. But where it’s doing it hard today to live for tomorrow, I, I kind of have a, a problem with that aspect of it. And I do probably talk to people a lot about that because then I say, okay, so you’re 45 or 55 or 65 or whatever it actually is and you sold your business, then what? I’ll go and sit on a beach and go, yeah, really how long for are you going to do that for given that you’re an entrepreneur? And I know most entrepreneurs don’t sit on a beach for too long before they go and start another business again. So then that’s the way that we typically operate. If it’s in you, if you’ve got DNA that you’re a business owner, typically you’ll be a business owner for the rest of your life. Is the way that, that, I don’t know many that retire and don’t go and do something else with their time. Because they’re not the sort of people that do that. So it’s a very important point to make that we that, that we don’t get caught up on sacrificing for today to live for tomorrow. And I see this all the time, as I said, in business and in business owners. And it’s something that I correct a lot of the time because it, it’s, it’s just a stupid thing. But we are geared, we are white that way. That’s the way we’ve been taught, brought up. And it’s all about, it’s all about, you know, getting to retirement and what is retirement at the end of the day, you know, so this is a, this is a thing.
Sarah:
It’s the most bizarre, most bizarre culture I think. But this is, this is where patience comes in again, because to live life today and tomorrow and the next day still having those wishes, it’s like, yes, I would like to get to that place. It’s perfectly natural as well. So it’s not a denial of those. It’s having those and living today, that does take some patience, especially in the culture we live in because we’re very wired to achieve goals and it’s all about the end point, which doesn’t make sense, but it’s so compelling mentally to think that it’s about that, that we tend to fall into it. So in this culture, it takes a tremendous presence, I think, to be able to have the patience to live today and at the same time have wishes for the future and to bring those two together.
Matt:
So the lens that we spoke about before has been, and I talk about the concept. It’s not my concept. It’s something that, you know, I’ve read before about, you know, this concept of doing what you want, when you want in the manner you want with whom you want. So therefore you actually have, and each one of those things, I get business owners to rate themselves again to say, well, are you doing it when you want? In the manner you want with whom you want? You know, and starting to, and someone will say, well, you know, I’m kind of not doing it with who I want. I’m not, you know, I’m working too many hours, I’m not doing it when I want. You know, I’m not really, so then I’m not enjoining the manner that I want. So they start to rate themselves and so then they start to make changes around the focus on those particular things. So then the patients kicks in there because then they go, well actually I’m not prepared to sacrifice this anymore and therefore I’ll be patient with getting that particular outcome. So I can see how this end principle could be a really good way of slowing yourself down and not beating yourself up about things taking too long from a patient’s perspective, which is what we do because we want things to happen, you know, and we are geared and wired towards that particular thing.
Sarah:
And then you get a much richer result because not only do you ultimately achieve the things you wanted to achieve the and, and, and version rather than the and or version, but you are also having a better time all the way to that achievement. So every day of your life is better by having that patience than it is by being impatient and pushy and trying to force results.
Matt:
So maybe that’s the way of managing it to, to say yes. I look at that and go, yes, I want to get there. I’m not feeling like I’m getting there fast enough. Well, it’s assessing the gap, it’s working out in that period of time. Is that really what I want to have? And if I am, is that mean that it’s going to come at a price? Because getting clear about the and, and, and, so I can see how those, that that gap can allow time to assess, you know, because there could be a force at saying, don’t go down that particular path or a trust in energy saying, don’t go that way because you are actually going to, it’s going to, to because you a problem somewhere else in your life that you may not necessarily be conscious of or aware of.
Sarah:
Yes. That’s interesting. So if you feel uncomfortable, know that there’s something important there and listen to it patiently and see what it’s telling you. Maybe you want that plus, plus, plus and, and, and maybe you need to tweak it, but everything comes back to what we always come back to really, which is feeling good, feeling good, feeling good is also, patience is part of feeling good and feeling good is patient.
Matt:
Yeah. I think that’s a good way. And it still comes back to being kind to yourself and loving the outcome of your life too. So I, it always comes back to this particular point, but because it all comes back to this point is the point. Well,
Sarah:
That’s all right. I think that’s all right. Yeah, that’s what it comes back to. That’s great.
Matt:
Well, I think that we’ve explored that topic really well today. Sarah and I enjoyed the conversation around thinking next time I get into this situation of feeling like I’m, things are slow or not getting to where I want to get to or things are going to take too long. Going through that process of assessing, of being in the gap, assessing it and thinking about the and, and, and I think is a good way to, and being kind to yourself and recognizing that you might be in some mud and that’s okay, is a good way to remind yourself to be kind to yourself.
Sarah:
It’s all about what happens in the gap.
Matt:
Mind the gap. As they say.
Sarah:
Mind the gap.
Matt:
Thanks.
Sarah:
Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. We’ll be back next week with another episode. You’ll find the show notes with links and other useful information on our website, spirit of business.live. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends.
