We put so much emotion into competition, which is ultimately about winning and losing. But does it really help us run better businesses?
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 83, winning and Losing in Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
I’ve been reflecting a bit recently because there’s a lot of sporting grand finals on at the moment that I’m watching, and I’m really fascinated by, you know, the emotion that is poured out by people that are playing the game, coaching the game, and also spectating, so fans of teams and how emotional they are and they get around their team and the belief that they have in the team. And just the concept of, of, you know, being so invested into winning and losing. Okay. So there, there’s, you know, the whole emotional state is dependent upon whether their football team or whatever their supporting wins or loses. And look, it’s great. I’m not judging it at all. I think it’s, it’s great that people are invested into things and, and care about things and support beliefs in their whatever they’re actually believing in and, and their teams. But I still find it fascinating to watch and I, I sit back and, and objectively look at it and go, doesn’t make a lot of sense to begin with when you really strip it away and you sort of lift up to the sort of a helicopter view to look in at this thing and saying, why are people so invested into a team firstly? And secondly the concept of winning compared to losing and why people feel so, such an emotional state associated with that. And it, it’s just something that I think about. And then, you know, how does that relate into business and translate into business and how we are wired around at the concept of winning and losing in business, and why do we feel the way that we do about that and the emotional state. So I was just trying to draw some parallels between, you know, this concept that, that just seems to be quite bizarre when you really look at it, but then understandable at the same time. So, I don’t know what I’d like to really talk about that today as a concept and a topic around sport. You know, winning, losing, business, winning and losing motions associated with it.
Sarah:
It’s one of those topics where I can feel this tiny little bit of me saying, oh, Sarah, you’re really an alien when it comes to this kind of topic. So it’s like there’s a book that I read, which actually is a very philosophical book and very fascinating book, which is called The Infinite Game, I think that’s what it’s called. And it’s all about finite and infinite games. And winning and losing games are finite games. You know, you win when you reach a certain point and it has an end, and then you can start the game again. But what this book was, was essentially about was the fact that life itself is an infinite game. It’s not a finite game. We play it very often like a finite game. And that’s why perhaps it is so emotional because if you actually invest your energy in the performance of your team, I used to live with somebody who was a Wolf supporter, a Wil Hampton Wanderers supporter, football, soccer in the UK absolutely passionate. And, and people’s mood can go up and down with their team. And if you think about it emotionally, you actually belong then to your team. Your team is controlling your emotions. And then if your team’s performance is controlling your identity, like who you feel you are when your team is, my, my sister went to the rugby school, which is where the game rugby started. And she used to talk about how the whole mood of the entire school would depend on the, the first team’s results on a Saturday afternoon. It’s like, to me that’s extraordinary. It’s extraordinary that we, we would really want to be run, so to speak, emotionally controlled by something like a sport. I understand that it, I watched, I’m quoting all these sources. I watched something on Netflix recently, it’s called The English Game. It was actually about the origins of professional football, soccer. And it was fascinating because it became professional because there were many men, especially in the north of England who were working in the mills and places like that. They were very poor. It was originally a gentleman’s game, and so they could all afford to play it at their leisure. And then all these guys wanted to play it, but they couldn’t afford to take any time for training or playing games because they had to work. And in the end it became professional, so that they could actually play. And what I learned from that film was that football in those villages and towns was one of the things that gave people spirit. So I think that that’s where it gets interesting is that in a way, when we, when we go for something or when we try to, sometimes when we beat ourselves, there’s something about competition and winning that speaks to the human spirit. That kind of unbeatable-ness. That thing in you that says, I’m going to do that even if everybody says it’s impossible. And so that’s why sport is so kind of uplifting and exciting for people. And I think the shadow side of that is that when we allow ourselves to be controlled emotionally by something external to us, we actually lose the finite and the, well, you can’t lose the infinite game, but you really, you lose a lot through that of your own sovereignty or freedom or independence. So it’s a really interesting topic.
Matt:
It is, you reminded me about that controlling nature, of sport on towns. I remember my father-in-law telling me that, because he was a, a clothing sales rep that used to go to, to a lot of the country towns. And he wouldn’t go to the country town if one of the football teams lost that particular weekend because nobody bought on Monday morning. No one, the town almost shut down. And we’re talking about a, a fairly large regional town of probably about 300,000 people. So we’re not talking about just a small sort of country town from that point of view. So it does, it actually has a significant influence not only on the individuals but also the township. And it actually also has an economic impact as well when you look at that. If he wasn’t prepared to go there and sell his product because he thought everybody wasn’t in the mood to buy as opposed to if they won on the weekend, then they’re in a euphoric sort of type you know, enjoying the moment and, and they’d buy a lot more. I mean it’s, it’s hilarious to think that controlling sort of element that we feel that we’re attached to something so much that we then end up that it does control us emotionally. And I really see the parallels with that in business in terms of how when things are going well in your business and you’re winning, so to speak, you know, as in, you know, making money and the cash flow’s good and revenue’s coming through and people are signing up or you know, people are buying your product. There’s this real confidence in this real sense of you know, probably not necessary euphoria like winning an event, okay, but this confidence about the business, but equally when things aren’t going so well and there’s this just this horrible feeling that’s associated with it, I think what you said’s right, that an infinite game, which is one that continues on as opposed to an event where you win a game and then it’s over and then you start all over again. I can realize the parallels that the, the intensity of a game. I don’t think we have that in business where you have that intensity of a game and then the following day you start the process all over again. I think that we’re in this continuum and they often draw parallels with sport and business, but I’ve never really seen how you could possibly run a business like a sporting team because there’s not this event-based type mentality where, you know, we’re all pulling towards the weekend and we’re going to, you know, we’ve got to go out there and win a game and then we’re going to then, then the next week, you know, have to think about what we’re going to do for the following week. And there’s this real sort of high and low emotion that’s attached to each particular event, whereas business is more of a, an ongoing continuum. And so I think that there’s an interesting element with that.
Sarah:
Well, I, I think that also depends on the type of business because if your business is built around promotions, which many businesses are, and I was actually taught to build my business around promotions. I remember doing a one-month course and that was, the promotion was the heart of it. And you know, we were learning that you should, there should always be a promotion that has an end, so to speak. And then you can have that. And I certainly see, because I’m part of that kind of digital online business world and I dabble, I don’t do a lot of affiliate marketing, but occasionally I’ll join something or if I’m, if I’m being interviewed in something, they ask me to be an affiliate for the event, I will. And some people are very, very competitive in the way they run those and they have leaderboards and they send out an email every day saying who’s going up and who’s going down. And I look at it and it’s like, you really think that’s going to make a difference to me? Like, but it clearly works for some people to make them push harder. The thing that concerns me, especially around marketing for example, is does it make people behave better or does it make them push harder? And there’s such an allergy, like I get a lot of clients who are allergic to mainstream marketing and they will not even engage with it anymore. They’ve so much lost credibility because of these very competitive tactics that they use. And so they love people who, who communicate in a way that is respectful and sensitive to the people who they, who you’re communicating with. So I think that’s the interesting thing about it. Like I can, I can see that in an event-based business there are, there are those kind of buildups because there are really events, and you need to kind of build the energy around it because you are needing people to sign up for something all on one day or all in a certain period of time or whatever it is. But, I personally don’t find that competitive energy is very useful except perhaps learning how to get better at being myself and doing things. I do find that you can kind of translate the energy into an energy which is about self-improvement and then it’s really powerful.
Matt:
So it clearly works for some people though because people invest into and enjoy that competitive approach to wanting to always get better, achieve win, don’t like it when they’re losing sort of type or they’re behind or they’re not number one on the leaderboard or, and I see that in business all the time. I’m probably not necessarily, I can engage with it if I have to, but typically I probably would prefer not to because I think I, I’m into sustainability and I think that in business it’s about a long-term play rather than this sort of spiky event sort of type stuff. Sure. That spiky event stuff is a continuum that goes on in some businesses from a, from an ongoing perspective. But I think that high and low emotion causes a lack of sustainability because people can burn out in a highly emotional environment. So I, I prefer to have it sort of even doubt a little bit even in that, in that world because I see that emotion being so spiky so high, the high, high and the low lows that I’m not too sure whether that’s really a great model manage people’s sustainability in life. And that’s probably what I notice about it the most.
Sarah:
Well it’s also if you look at the energy of it, that’s very forceful energy. So we could say it’s not ethical energy even and that’s why quite often not very ethical behavior can emerge from that kind of competitive situation because people will override their own inner wisdom and consciousness in order to win a result. And that’s why like, I think it’s interesting to question what does it mean, and it’d be interesting to, to hear from you from your experience. What does it mean to say it works for some people, we can say it works as a motivator, it makes them do things they might not otherwise do. How well does it work for a business for example, to run on that kind of adrenaline and competition? Really.
Matt:
It’s a really good question to ask and something worth certainly discussing. I think that what I see is that some people really need that motivator to get to do something beyond what they otherwise would do. And they’re looking for it. They actually are looking for that sort of competition. You can see there’s a real wiring around the fact that they, they like to, and, and I’ve heard people say a lot, saying oh, really disappointed. I said, why are you disappointed? He goes, well I’m actually not number one on the leaderboard. If there’s a, you know, some sort of a lead generation board or a revenue target board or something that might be a measurement in an organization and you’re seeking rich emotion in people to say, right, I’m going to get off my backside and go and do something to ensure that next week I’m on the top of that leaderboard. And that’s their motivation. And I think great, if that’s your motivator and it motivates you to do something as long as, as you say, it’s, it’s ethical and it’s inside of the business strategy and it’s not going outside, it’s not forcing something that shouldn’t be forced, then I don’t see it as a bad thing. I see it as well, if that’s what motivates you to go and do something, you feel good about it. Because that person ultimately feels good about the fact that they are sitting number one on a leaderboard. I go, great, I don’t have a problem with it as long as, as you say, it’s not causing a problem or it’s not pushing the business beyond that, and we’ve spoken about this before around the concept of, you know, why businesses sometimes get into trouble and why industry’s getting into trouble and why we end up in royal commissions for banking and stuff like that. And it can be around this concept of saying, well shareholders, you know, inverted commas, expect growth of 10%, okay, or 5%. Well, okay, but what if it’s unnatural for a business to continually grow five or 10% year on year, on year on year over the next two or three decades? It might be actually impossible because the market is only a certain size and therefore there’s a limit to how big you can actually get without pushing it beyond its natural level. I think that’s when we get into that, you know, competition in an outcome that’s not necessarily conducive to being the right outcome. And I, and I see competition at that level where it pushes beyond where you should be. That’s not healthy. But I see, you know, and we, we’ve heard the concept before about healthy competition. Okay, so, so I think maybe there’s healthy competition and unhealthy competition. So competition that pushes somebody to the point where there’s an unfair advantage or they’re pushing beyond where they should be pushing, unhealthy and not necessarily grading business where there’s a competitive spirit and I like the word that you used before about spirit, where there’s a competitive spirit and, and a spirit to improve and people like to compete with each other to improve because that’s natural human behavior. I think that’s healthy and therefore can drive people beyond what they may otherwise be able to achieve if they didn’t have that healthy competitive spirit.
Sarah:
Yeah, it’s interesting, I was thinking about ecosystems and that competitive piece is, I understand the spirit bit. Like it is fun sometimes it’s just fun to compete with somebody else if it’s not taken too seriously. The thing that I find difficult is that people will often compete and they’re different people and they’re competing for the same thing. One of the things that I’ve really had to teach myself is like, I don’t need to be number one on the leaderboard. I need to do the things that are the right thing for my business because I might be number 10 on the leaderboard and I also might bring in somebody really influential for my business. I might be number 20 on the leading board. I might be nowhere, like being number one might be a good thing and it can get me a bit excited or get me a bit motivated. But I find that it’s helpful to keep a much broader perspective on things and understand that the real story is a rich story and there are a lot of things going on with them in that number one or that number 10. And those are the interesting things because those are people engaging with me and maybe somebody else I’m promoting or whatever the activity is in order to change their life.
Matt:
So maybe the concept that we’re talking about here is competition tied up with the word with a game? Okay. And then with competition and with a game, we often hear about the, the term, what are the stakes of the game, what’s the, what’s at stake in terms of you know, the prize in terms of the, and therefore the winning and losing associated with achieving that prize and that stake. So what’s at stake is maybe the question that we should be thinking about when we are talking about competition and whether it’s healthy or unhealthy because if, if the health of the organization is at stake, okay, then you say that potentially there’s a massive risk that if we get this wrong then we’ve got a very unhealthy business. But if the, if the, you know, if it’s gamesmanship that’s, that’s played like you spoke about it before a gentleman’s game, you know, if it’s a, if it’s a gaming good nature and, and the stakes aren’t, somebody’s gonna lose their house or their business or their reputation or something like that, you go, well then, then it’s just a, it is just a, a nice healthy game that, that helps motivate people and push people along from, from that point of view. I think it’s, it’s certainly maybe that’s the, that’s where it becomes unhealthy when the stakes are going to produce, somebody’s going to lose something significant from the game.
Sarah:
Yeah. I also personally think that like, I’m not really, well what I was going to say is I, if somebody’s number one, somebody’s number two, somebody’s number three, somebody’s number four. Like to me in some ways that’s just weird. I get it that maybe one person has brought more people in. I think one of the things that I have about this is that it can very easily make us focus on the wrong thing because everything is determined by the rules of the game. So if the rules are in this, let’s take the promotion, the affiliate thing, because it’s a really easy one that it’s the, the number of people you bring to that to sign up for this free offer or whatever it is, everything is determined by that. And that’s where I see this happen all the time in marketing where people make decisions based on the number and they don’t include the quality in it. And so they will do something to get the numbers or you are talking about sustainability. So I’m looking at the quality and you’re looking at the longevity. The combination of quality over time will generally produce better results than just getting the numbers within the rules of the game. So I think that’s the, this is where I, like, it seems to be very natural for human beings to play games and therefore finite games that have winners and losers. I think we have to look at what are the rules of the infinite game, which is life and are we playing games that are really supportive to life or actually are we hurting ourselves or each other or other parts of life in the games that we play? Because the rules of this game are not really aligned with the rules of the bigger game.
Matt:
And then the other concept of that when you talk about rules is, is everybody playing by the rules or changing the rules? Also where frustration and you know mental health and anxiety and depression lie too because people are actually, you know, confused by that particular part of the playing a game. And I, I think you’re right, some people’s games aren’t conducive to the ultimate game that we’re playing or, you know, the longevity of, of business and life. So I think this is really interesting when you start to look at it a game and it’s rules and it’s outcome. But one of the things that I wanted to also talk about is that you were, you talking about ranking, like we were talking about ranking being first, second, third, fourth sort of type thing. But I think a lot of time in business there’s just a winner and a loser or we think about from winning and losing, especially when, where dealing in especially a legal situation where you could possibly have a situation where you’re going to either win or lose or seem to be that particular way. And we’ve heard, you know, the concept that, you know, there are no winners in some in some situations. So yeah, it’s really interesting when you start to think about it in terms of winning, losing, ranking rules of a game, what’s at stake, whether it’s healthy or unhealthy and the balance associated with all that. And, and I like what you just said about the sustainability of quality and the quality being not just a subset to a complete, so you were saying before about one number, right? And one number may not necessarily be the right way of defining whether you’re actually winning or losing as well because you’re only looking at one element of that. You say, yeah, I won that element, but you lost all these other elements that go along with it in terms of one of them might be quality. So also defining the goal. And we, we’ve been talking a little bit the last couple of weeks in the business about defining what you want and that’s really the ultimate stake or prize and then the goals and that go along with that. And then also the, the rules on how do we actually, or the, the boundaries about how do we actually define to get there. So this is happening more and more and more and it’s becoming harder and more confusing. I think as human beings we going, well what do we really want?
Sarah:
Yes. Which is once you get to what do you really want, there is no competition there. Or if you start looking around at other people and say, I want what he’s got and I want what she’s got, you start comparing yourself. That is a recipe for extreme unhappiness. I’ve seen that in people where they find it really hard to tune into what they want for themselves. And so they look at other people and compare themselves and then figure out what they think that they should want for themselves. And it’s not them, it’s like an apple trying to be a banana. It, it’s not the right thing for the right person. So probably that’s why I feel the whole competitive thing, like play. I, I loved playing games when I was a kid and I still sometimes like to play games just purely for the fun of it. But I remember even when I was a child, you know, when I was the person who was up or it, like I was the person who was catching everybody, I would manage the whole game so that everybody was having fun. Because I knew perfectly well that I could probably go around and kill everybody in the first five minutes because it’s fairly easy to do that quite often and it wouldn’t be any fun. And I used to make sure that it wasn’t like that. I think I knew that the purpose of the game was for us to have fun. It wasn’t actually, the satisfaction wasn’t in the winning, it was in the enjoyment of the experience. And of course, for some people it is really fun. That is a very enjoyable experience and for some people it really isn’t. So I think it’s really important that we don’t impose that competitiveness on people who are not naturally competitive. Like some people really shrink in those kinds of situations and it’s very unfavorable to them. So that’s something, that’s something to bear in mind and, and what we really want, you know, the goals that actually make our hearts sing that make life come alive, they’re never competitive, even if it’s self-improvement, even if we’re constantly kind of improving or growing ourself in some way, it’s not really a competitive thing. It’s more like growth. It’s expansion.
Matt:
Something that just came into my head then, and I think there’s a, a link to it with what you just said then is that when you watch a sporting team not perform to the level that you believe that they’re capable of doing, I find that one of the most frustrating things I’ve got to say when I’m watching, watching a sporting team, when I’m watching a team and I’m going, oh my goodness, what are they doing running around out there? And if I link that back to what you were just saying then, is that, that it’s about growth and development and when you’re seeing people actually not growing and developing themselves that’s where you, there’s something in that that I find difficult to comprehend and understand. And that translates into business as well when I actually have a team of people that, you know, aren’t actually achieving or to their base of their capability or they’re just not functioning in a great way. It becomes a very difficult thing to manage or, and there’s not a lot of joy and enjoyment in, in that element because there’s something going on that’s beyond, and I know that when there’s a sporting team that’s not performing to their level of capability, there’s something going on in the background that we have no idea about. When you’re a spectator and you, and you try to sit there and go, what’s going on? Why are they performing the way that, why aren’t they haven’t got their head in the game? And you see that it’s in business and, and the way that organizations perform as well,
Sarah:
Which is pretty fascinating when you think about the engagement statistics in business, which are generally appalling. There was a time in my life when I used to read engagement studies across the world you know, corporate company engagement of staff in business and it was shocking, absolutely shocking how the vast majority of people are really unengaged in business. So their, their heads are not in the game at all. And perhaps that’s the reason why I, I challenge them because businesses do tend to be a very competitive environment a lot of the time and it’s clearly not engaging the majority of the people who are in it, probably it’s better in small businesses just by the nature of them, they’re much more dynamic. But it, whatever that game is, it’s not working very well if people are so miserable at work and, and, and don’t care about it.
Matt:
So maybe the, the whole concept of winning and losing does work for some people where they’re engaged and invested into it, but where they’re not then that’s not going to help anyway. But then there’s some people that probably don’t even have that view of, of being sort of, you know, this concept of being motivated by winning and losing anyway.
Sarah:
Yeah. And perhaps I learned a lot at one stage about human development and I think there are stages that we go through where that’s an important part of healthy development. So we need to know how to win and lose. I think I, I know that it’s been really important for me learning how to lose in business and how to fail and you, they always say the most successful people are the people who failed the most. Definitely. Like, if you can go through what you deem to be a failure and be completely unrocked by it and just, you know, keep going to the next thing, learn something and, and keep moving on rather than the things that I see people go through of, you know, the self-humiliation and blame and the emotional lows that arise off from, from a perceived failure. So that, that’s to, to be able to manage losing really well and then to this is actually what’s been taught. I remember, you know, in, in the UK it’s very British sort of thing to learn how to win gracefully as well. Perhaps those are very important developmental experiences, but from my observation, we do expand beyond that. There is life beyond competition and it doesn’t mean the competition has no value, it just has its place and its place I suspect is having fun. It’s not it’s not actually really serious. It’s not the point.
Matt:
And I watched this with my children, you know, and that’s one of the things I believe is my responsibility is to teach them how to win gracefully and lose gracefully, gracefully or respectfully or whatever, you know, or honorably. And it’s funny even you know, at the moment because we’re in lockdown still in Victoria, so we’re having dinner with each other every night which is fantastic because it’s nice connection time. Because normally we’re all over the place and we actually play a card game after dinner every night at the moment. We play, you know, every night with the, the kids and, and my wife and, and it’s just watching that dynamic that goes on in your family even and watching the children play and, and not so children now the oldest is 20, but, but you know, the dynamic that goes on in the concept of winning and losing and how people handle it and the natural sort of jiving that goes on with, you know, well, you know, and, and because, you know, it’s is one of those games where you can actually manufacture somebody to win or lose too by ganging up on people too. It’s this concept that happens and I think you’re right, if we can manage the emotion that sits around the winning, the game and the winning and the losing and see the beauty and the joy of the experience of it. Because going back to one of your earlier points in sport and in business we see achievement. We go how cool is it that that person actually achieved what they achieved regardless of whether you’re on the winning or losing. So just appreciation of a great performance is I think the beauty in sport and also in business. And if we can sort of remove some of the emotions that, the personal emotion that’s attached to it, to be honest, say that and experience it and support it and embrace it. It’s at a higher level of consciousness as you say.
Sarah:
Yeah. I think that that is a great stimulation for the spirit, so to speak. When you see somebody or an organization kind of go beyond what they think they’re capable of or go beyond what other people have ever done before, there’s no, there’s no question that that calls something out in us. And to me that calls out the best of us. It calls out that ability to go beyond what you feel as a regular human being that you really can do. And, and, and that’s a very powerful thing. That’s the, that’s definitely for me, the good side of it.
Matt:
It’s a human spirit.
Sarah:
It’s the human spirit. Yeah.
Matt:
And it’s the business spirit that we talk about it, it’s going beyond, you know, mediocre, it’s going beyond what you thought was possible in your life as an individual or in your business, in your industry. It’s, and that’s where we feel that you, you get the best out of it, but in a healthy way as opposed to a destructive way I think is what we were sort of talking about before.
Sarah:
Well it’s not because you want to be everyone else, it’s because you want to achieve something for its own sake. That’s a really different thing from being the winner so that you can say I’m great and you are not, that’s cheap, but because there’s simply something you want to achieve or something you want to create or contribute purely for its own sake, for the value of whatever that is, that’s very different. That’s the spirit of business.
Matt:
And there’s a real power in that. I think even just talking about it in this particular way and, and acknowledging it and, and reminding ourselves and getting our head into the, the spirit of it too can lift you beyond the consciousness of the winning and losing concept where you can acknowledge something that’s been achieved. It’s of greatness. I think I really like this conversation in terms of where it’s got to in terms of saying, well, we acknowledged that this is the case, but it, it’s, it’s improvement for good I think is the, the spirit of competition and the spirit of achievement.
Sarah:
Yes. And then that really pushes you, it pushes everybody who’s involved both to think beyond themselves so greater than themselves, but it also pushes us to perform at our best. We stop looking around at everybody else and we really start to focus on what can I do, what can I can contribute to that, that that’s, it’s such a different internal motivation then.
Matt:
Well I think that’s a good point to sort of end the conversation today because I feel like we got, you know, to a good place around sort of understanding this concept of you know, the emotional aspect of winning and losing and, and how you can see that it can be euphoric but destructive at the same time. So I think we’ve got to a good place of how we can focus on it and get the real benefit associated with competition for want of a better word.
Sarah:
Thank you very much, Matt.
Matt:
Thanks Sarah.
Sarah:
You’ve been listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. If you’d like some insight into the spirit in which you do business, a great place to start is by looking at your relationship with money. Find out more by taking the Money scorecard@moneyscorecards.app and we’ll be back next week.
