Do you treat yourself as well as you treat the people around you? Do you sometimes let yourself down so you don’t need to experience conflict with someone else? Do you give away too much but fight for everyone else? Let’s detangle this behaviour.
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 84. What’s your Achilles Heel? With Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi, Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
Today I want to talk about something that I see as a repeat pattern of behavior around the way that I am. And I think that it also transcends I see it a number of times with different business owners, and I just want to have a chat to you about that because I think there might be something that’s deeper than what I can sort of see on the surface. And that’s around this concept that as an advisor, I’m constantly talking to business owners about you know, how to do something or the best way to do something. And I often get very protective around the assets of their business and around their income and around their profit, and really talking, giving advice around making sure that they do all the right things in relation to that. And then when I say things occur in their business where that might potentially erode that or reduce that, I start to become very protective and talk about this sort of, what’s the right thing to do. And what I mean by that is, that it could be in line with they might have to talk about salary renegotiations with a team member. And a team member might want something that I think is not fair or right, or just, and then, so I might give some advice to the business owner about saying, well, I think that, you know, you should be a bit stronger about how you go about you know, this negotiation. And I see people are very strong in negotiations in certain areas, but then in some other regards, they’re not as strong, okay. And so therefore they sort of walk away from those negotiations, for example. So they might necessarily go, oh, you know what? I don’t really want to have that sort of fight, or I don’t want to upset somebody. It’s just easy to pay people what they want and, and sort of, and be done with it, move on, because I don’t want to have the conflict or I don’t want to have the, you know, the stuff that goes along with it, or I might not necessarily want to have the loss that goes along with it as well. And I’ll say that, you know, there’s been patterns over the years in me that’s done that too, where I’m happy just to give, just to move it along so I don’t have to worry about it too much. And you’re giving away too much, and you might be not protecting what you have, in that regard. And so, therefore, I’m happy to give up things, but not necessarily, but I’ll fight for everybody else, but I won’t necessarily fight for myself. So there’s a lot in that. I know that I’ve probably used a whole lot of concepts at the same time, not being very clear about it, but hopefully, you know, by what I’ve just said, then you can help to potentially unpack that and put that into some sort of a thing.
Sarah:
I actually think this is a really fascinating topic. And it comes out very strongly. Because I think what you are really talking about, you see a lot in the coaching and advisory kind of services where people will give advice to others that they don’t always, sometimes they don’t even know how to follow. Like in your case, it’s not that you don’t know how to follow it. It’s something different. But I think this is a really important thing to discuss because, well, we’re just having a thunderstorm at the moment, so if there are rumbles I think we’ll just have to roll with it. I think it’s an important thing to discuss because, you know, I think of things like imposter syndrome, which comes up for people I think more in the earlier stages. I wouldn’t imagine you experience that, but that’s an earlier stage version of the same thing where I’m giving out advice, but I don’t even really feel that I have the credibility to be able to do that. For you, it’s a very different thing. But it does, the word that comes up for me quite strongly is integrity. Like, where’s the integrity, integrity in fighting for everybody else and not actually fighting for yourself. I understand why you would do that, but I still bring up the question around integrity. And I wonder what that, what that, how you respond to that.
Matt:
It’s a fair point about that because integrity, I believe is the definition of it. Do what you say you’re going to do. Okay. And so if you look at that, you’re saying, well, I’m saying something but not necessarily doing the same thing. I, having said that, I always look at the, the path of least resistance or the path that’s going to give somebody the most amount of comfort. Okay. That they’ll be able to. So when I do give that advice where I say, no, well, I’m really conscious of, of you, really to a particular client for example, where they might be feeling like they’re giving away too much or that, you know, something’s been eroded in their business unfairly. We do talk through these things and I’ll say, well, this is the strong piece of advice, but you have to feel comfortable with it as well. So we end up getting to this pathway, what feels right. Okay. And sometimes that can feel like it’s the path of least resistance or the path of ease or the path of giving in. Okay. Because sometimes the path of least resistance, path of ease sometimes feels like you’re just giving in because it’s easier to do that than it is to go and fight. I think there’s something in that, and maybe there’s integrity in that because, you know what are you willing to fight for? It gets back to this concept of that I talk about a lot about battles and wars. You know, what battles are you prepared to pick to ensure that, you know, you win the ultimate war? I know that’s a very negative statement, but, it’s that sort of concept that I talk about. So maybe it’s more in that particular space that you find the what feels right and maybe the integrity bit sits with that. And if you don’t feel right about it, that’s when you’re not in line with integrity.
Sarah:
Yeah, I think that’s a really important point. And one of the things that you could look at is do the same kind of things keep happening over and over again. Because if they do, then I would say that definitely that person didn’t do the work. It’s not the outside work, it’s the internal work of finding a really, a really good solution. Because I think if you make the habit of finding wise solutions, I love the word wisdom in this context, solutions that are sourced in a genuine, like I often think about ecosystems, respect for everyone in the ecosystem, not just for me to win or something. Then you make decisions that have a ripple effect. And in the future, it gets easier if you tend to bottle out, some people bottle out, they take the easier course, not because it’s, it’s just not important enough to bother about, but because they don’t want the discomfort, then they’ll pretend to have the same thing happening, maybe even getting worse, because they’re not carving a path of kind of wisdom and consciousness that, that it should get easier and easier until it’s really not an issue at all if you do it well. And if you don’t do it well, it’ll get harder and harder until you are forced pretty much to change the way you are. That’s what I’ve seen about any of these kinds of things in life.
Matt:
And that’s spot on when I start to think about, you know other people and other people’s businesses, they certainly it’s almost like they get paralyzed that they can’t go forward in this particular regard. And so, therefore, they, you know, that real fight and flight scenario is that they really do run away from the situation because, you know, they see that it’s just too difficult to deal with and it’s too combative or it’s too aggressive in the way that it operates. So they’re better off just to go, just to retreat, put their head in the sand. So I’m not going to do this anymore. And it’s really interesting to watch, and maybe that’s what I’m talking about, where I’ll probably step in and, and fight for that. Because I know that they may have a level of incapability at that point in time because for whatever reason. But I see it, it’s interesting because there’s certain things that will trigger that and other things that don’t. And I see people being very strong and they’ll fight for so many things, and fight’s not necessarily the right word, but they’ll stand up for what they believe in, or they’ll make very clear and conscious decisions and, and wise decisions in a lot of regards. But there’ll be this achilles heel that they’ll actually have in a certain aspect of decision making for a particular purpose that I can see the real paralyzation that occurs there too. So I think that’s what I see, that there’s this real distinct difference between somebody who’s very strong in decision making across a number of things, but then very paralyzed in certain aspects too. And I wonder what that is.
Sarah:
Well, we start to get into deep territory here, really, because usually the areas where we get paralyzed like that, there’s something very subconscious or unconscious that’s driving that because that decision will be made because the person doesn’t feel safe to go in the other direction. And it’s very often not rational. In fact, it’s probably never rational. It might not make sense to anybody else because it looks like, well, here’s the answer, this is what you should do. I’ll stand beside you, kind of thing. Like, you know, but people then go off and do something that’s completely irrational, probably even to themselves. My experience is that that happens. That’s usually more likely to be caused by factors that have happened before this lifetime. So this, we get into really deep, much more, more spiritual areas here. The way I view it, very often in previous lives, we’ve done things or we’ve had things done to us that have never been resolved, and they leave patterns in our consciousness or in our energy that show up in this lifetime. And, you know, whether you believe in lifetimes or not, I think there’s no doubt that everybody has patterns. Babies are not complete blank slates. They come in and they, even from a very early age, they display patterns. And there are things, ways we respond that have no real explanation until you start to look deeper. But the thing that’s most interesting about that is that usually that person who responds that way is actually avoiding really knowing themself. They’re living, they’re living a lie towards themself, towards their deeper self. That sounds very strong, but in a way it’s true. So there’s a sort of betrayal going on of who they really are for the sake of business or for the sake of relationships. It often happens in relationships as well. And I think there’s only one real solution for that kind of thing, is you actually have to get to know yourself more deeply.
Matt:
Yeah. It’s interesting you talk about that and you use the word relationship because I see it, sometimes it comes down to they’re paralyzed by a relationship as opposed to, so they might be able to deal with the same issue 10 times over with 10 different people, but there’d be that one person that they can’t deal the same issue with. And it’ll come down to something in that, that’s really, it’s really interesting to see. So it’s not necessarily the thing, it’s, it might be the, the interpersonal relationship you have with a person that stops you from being able to, to, that’s where they get into that paralyzed statement. They say, well, I’m just happy to walk away from it and not deal with it.
Sarah:
And that’s one of the really interesting things. Because we never really know the underlying dynamics of a relationship. Why is it that this person can feel so difficult? Whereas you can manage so many things with so many other people, unless you start to look at these deeper patterns in life, it’s the only way I’ve ever been able to make sense of it. I had so many experiences when I was younger that I could not understand why people were treating me the way that they treated me when I just didn’t deserve it. You know? It just, it wasn’t, it wasn’t the right thing I was trying my best to do, to do the right thing and to be good and to be honest, and those kinds of things. It didn’t make any sense at all until I started, somebody introduced me to all this knowledge about past lifetimes and how there’s a kind of, it’s like there’s a resonance into this lifetime of things that haven’t been resolved in the past. It’s a pattern. And that helps us to understand why we behave so irrationally in certain situations and especially in certain relationships.
Matt:
Which makes a lot of sense. And I sort of see this when, I’ve had firsthand experience with this, with just my own children and seeing how they sort of react as they grow up. And you go, where, where did that come from? Or how did they actually you know, end up being in that particular space or in that particular environment? And, you know, given that they’ve had the same DNA and they’ve had the same sort of upbringing and they all act so differently to that. So I can certainly see a huge amount of merit in that. And that made a lot of sense to me when we’ve, we’ve had these conversations historically, you and I around saying, well, there’s obviously something at play here that’s, that’s beyond what we can rationally see right here and right now. And I think that we have to respect that because in that would also give us some answers as to why things that don’t seem like they’re very clear and rational when you’ve got people behaving in a certain way, you go, that doesn’t make any sense to me at all, why you can do this, but you can’t do that.
Sarah:
Yeah. And it also helps to give you a path. It gives you a way of resolving those things. Because otherwise, you’re at the mercy of this person who you can’t have a sensible conversation with because they trigger you in some way so much. Whereas you can have that sensible conversation with all these other people. You’ll, if you don’t have any understanding of it, you don’t have any resolution, you’re just going to go on kind of being controlled by people in a certain kind of way. Whereas once you have some understanding, then you can figure out what you can do about it. And yeah, it is, it’s a deeper, it’s deeper work that you have to do, but it makes an enormous amount of difference in business, as you’ve seen and I’ve seen, and everybody who I’ve worked with I can say the same thing, that we start to unpack the deeper patterns that otherwise just drive us in crazy directions.
Matt:
And what I also see with that is that people that just automatically look at what the other person is doing in terms of this, like the dynamics. So therefore you might be able to have the, as you say, have the same conversation with nine other people in the 10th person. You always find it hard to have that conversation with. You know, they would say, well, actually it must be them, not me, because of the fact that it’s the, it’s the 10th person.
Sarah:
Always, that’s always what people say.
Matt:
That’s right. But clearly there’s always a 10th person. You can see the pattern of the 10th person throughout your whole life as opposed to the, so therefore you think that because it’s a minority, it must be them rather than me. So I see this happen more and more. But if they then recognize that the 10th person is actually still a pattern that emerges, then the work needs to be done, as you say, deeper internally rather than externally. In terms of managing that.
Sarah:
Honestly, I think this is one of the most important things in business. If you look at how many people end up blaming somebody or being really angry with somebody or disappointed or hurt or any of those things, where essentially they’re giving their emotional power to the other person. And it could be somebody who’s not even particularly important or valuable in their life, and they give a huge amount of energy because of the way somebody’s behaving. And it’s so destructive to business and it’s destructive to people and relationships. And so to have a way of dealing with those kinds of things it makes a very big difference over time.
Matt:
I even see that playing out with pandering to the lowest common denominator in a business or that one person in business as well. Because you actually, it’s like when you have an audience, if you ever present you might’ve experienced this before where you present and you’ll see one person switch. You might have a hundred people in the work room and you scan the room and you might see one person might be switching off or yawning, and you start to get into your mind that that one person, you end up trying to actually get engaged with that one person, not the ninety nine people in the room. And it’s just a natural thing that we tend to do. And then we get very focused on that one thing rather than the nintey nine of the good things that are going on as well. So there’s something in that too, I think for this conversation.
Sarah:
That’s, I don’t know, that’s a really crazy thing about human beings, the way that our attention is so drawn to the one thing that’s wrong rather than all the things that are right. And yet it’s when we grow the things that are right and the things that we like or love and want more of, that everything works. And when we give attention to what’s not working or what we don’t like, we grow that. I’ve talked about this principle many times, but I don’t even know where that’s come from. I don’t know historically why we have that tendency and why we seem to be almost ignorant about giving energy to what you wanna grow, paying attention to what you want more of, appreciating what you want to appreciate. Doesn’t matter which way you put it, it’s the same principle, because that’s alone. If you just taught that in every business, it would be impossible to sit around blaming your team or feeling angry or disappointed or frustrated with them because you’re just, you are creating more of that thing that you don’t want. You’d have to actually find that better place inside you that can, can find better solutions.
Matt:
Yeah, I see that. And so you can look at it from the perspective of, you can see where maybe those, those achilles heel are that you are looking at that you think, well, why do I feel that way about that particular situation? Or why am I always trying to solve the one thing that’s in the business that’s not working so well or the few things and become obsessive about that, or the one person that I can’t communicate with very well as opposed to looking at, you know, growing the whole, the whole business together. So there’s that part of, but there’s also the part addressing why do you actually have a difficulty with that particular part of as well. So I think that there’s answers in both of them, like not getting caught up in the one thing, but then also understanding why that is. The one thing too.
Sarah:
I think it’s a really interesting call as well, which way you go because generally speaking, the principle would be to pay attention to everything that you want to grow more of, but sometimes you actually do have to pay attention to that thing that’s nagging away. Because if you don’t, if you don’t deal with that, it gets bigger. I think if the thing that if, if the negative bit is shrinking, in most cases you’re going to be all right because the positive bit or the bit that you want is growing. That’s like I don’t if I mentioned this before in the podcast, maybe not, but I did a farming clinic recently and we were looking at, when you have a pasture and you’ve got a lot of unwanted grasses in that pasture, they’re not very nutritious for, for, for, for grazing cattle. And so you want to grow more of the nutritious ones and they’re usually very small, but you grow, this is what good regenerative farm farmers do. They focus all their attention on those small number of the good pasture, the good grass that they want to grow, and they just grow that and they move the cattle on as soon as that’s been grazed the right amount, even if there’s masses of the grass that they don’t want. And the good ones will overtake the bad ones, but occasionally you’ll get something that doesn’t work that way and then you actually have to find another solution to it. And in life, I’ve found that if anything just keeps on, it’s like it keeps knocking on your door, it keeps coming up, it keeps irritating you or bugging you. It’s not shrinking, it’s actually getting louder. Then you know that you have to find a different way to deal with that one.
Matt:
And, one way that we in farming in that analogy is, I, I dare say, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but some people would use some sort of a pesticide to kill that particular grass that’s the unwanted one to then allow space for the other grass to grow. And the same situation may occur in, in your business as well, in terms of you sort of go in and, and spray you know, the, try to eliminate the things that that, that actually cause you the most amount of grief by moving it on or, or avoid it or doing something. But like weed, that will always come back. The issue will always come back to haunt you in that, in that situation, unless you completely address it.
Sarah:
Well, it was actually a really interesting example in that, in that course, which is worth talking about because yeah, if what, what many farmers would do is come and try to spray all of that grass with pesticide or not, it’d be a herbicide. All of what’s not wanted. And if they keep doing that, they’re gonna get more and more noxious weeds growing. And we know that, we now know there are, there are farms with extraordinarily challenging weeds and they’re just, because they’ve basically nuked the whole place and all the life in the soil and that, and that doesn’t work. But it’s very interesting that the guy that was teaching that clinic, he said on his own farm, he has a small property, he has just like a patch where there’s a particular thing that keeps coming up over and over and over again and it’s not good for the cattle. And so he does actually apply there in very locally, very limited a herbicide, not because he particularly wants to do that, but because if he keeps cutting it, it gets stronger and stronger. And so he made a decision in this case, it’s like, in this case, I’m going to use the lawyer to deal with the problem, but in most cases, I’m gonna develop my relationship skills to get better at dealing with these difficult people. But occasionally it’s a really serious thing and you do actually have to just get rid of it. And these are the judgment calls that we have to make, which we may or may not get right. But I think we have to know when is this something which is about where I can grow from doing it better, and when is it actually damaging the whole system and doesn’t belong in this system at all.
Matt:
And I think you know if you talk about that and say, when is the, you know, how do we make that decision on whether it’s something that we learn to grow from or whether we actually just, you know give it to somebody else to sort out in that situation. And I think that’s when good sounding boards come in, like we’re speaking about sort of in previous podcasts, is that finding somebody that you can have that conversation with to say, hang on a minute is this something that is a pattern, is a recurring pattern that happens over and over again? Or is this something that’s a one off that I really don’t need to, to turn my attention to that probably if I turn my attention to it, it stops me from growing other things that are more important to grow and focus my energy and attention on. I think it’s that sort of active questioning of yourself or others questioning you around that which will actually help you make better decisions in that regard.
Sarah:
And the other thing that I think is really important in the example that you brought up at the beginning is that when you stand beside that business owner and you say, we’re going to protect your assets, or we’re going to protect your business, or we’re gonna make the right decision here, and I’m standing beside you, you bring your energy, which is your, your business energy, which you’ve grown over years, and you make that person stronger because you are acting in their business with them. And so they’re not having to do it. It’s not that you are doing it for them, or even with them, you’re probably back in your office or wherever, but they can feel that energy and then they’re, they’re not alone. They’re much, much stronger in doing the right thing. But very often people try, try to do the right thing in an area where they naturally feel weak and they don’t have any of that additional strength. Now you don’t want somebody who doesn’t have experience or who can’t give you that strength. It’s not, and it’s not also just about, oh, this is the right answer. You might be able to work out the right answer yourself, but do you have the energy, the strength to do it? And if you don’t, if you can find somebody who kind of lends their strength to yours, that helps you practice doing the right thing rather than bottling out and doing the, the taking the weaker option. So, and the more practice you get in taking the high road instead of the low road, the more it becomes your natural response rather than it being your response to run away.
Matt:
I think you make a very good point there about somebody standing alongside of you to, to show strength or provide you strength and that energy as opposed to completely providing the, like you just say, say, I want you to deal with it and I don’t wanna have anything to do with it. Right? So you either stand alongside of somebody, just solve it collectively, or you just completely say you sort it out. And so they’re not, don’t have to worry about it. And as you said before, there’s probably times where you, you, you, you know, there’s a pattern, you know, you need some support on it to solve, to help you solve for it. So it doesn’t keep coming, becoming a pattern. And, and it’s, it’s great to have somebody alongside of you who can actually support you and guide you and, and be there as opposed to saying, this is not me. This is not something I have to solve for. This is not a recurring pattern. I don’t want to get distracted by it. Can you then outsource it to somebody else to deal with it?
Sarah:
Definitely one of the things that I’ve seen is that the challenges that life brings us are the right challenges for us. And so even let’s, let’s take it as a legal problem. This is a very easy example. So you can say, okay, I’m bringing in the lawyer to deal with this. This is beyond my capacity, but there’s a really big difference between do I hand it over to the lawyer so that I don’t like, it’s just, it’s off my plate. I don’t care. I don’t want to have anything to do with this. Or do I hand it over to the lawyer so we can get a really great resolution or, or, or outcome. Those are very different from your point of view and the way you engage with it. Now, it may not take much more time, but it’s, it’s more about something that’s coming from the inside of you. Like again, it’s where is this coming from inside me and what kind of outcome do I want? Do I want a long-term outcome? Am I actually practicing really resolving things here or am I trying to shove this off my plate so that I don’t have to think about it because I don’t like it and I don’t wanna engage with it?
Matt:
Usually there’s a, there’s an element, when I think about the two things you spoke about there, typically there’s an element of fear that comes out of that people are running away from something they go, don’t want to deal with it, go, look, I don’t want to deal with it. You deal with it. And there’s a, there’s, you can feel the, the sense that the fear associated with that. And that’s not a negative, that’s just what it is at the end of the day. And we all go through those feelings of, of feeling quite fearful of certain situations or events. So you, you, you can feel the pain in it. And so what you’re trying to do is run away from the pain of, of having to deal with it. So I can certainly see, and sometimes you need the courage to, to know, look, it’s probably the right thing to do to, to get the best outcome, to stand shoulder to shoulder with a lawyer, for example, in that situation compared to handing the, the complete responsibility over the lawyer because you haven’t addressed the underlying emotion or fear that’s actually there that you probably need to because that can become the recurring pattern.
Sarah:
That’s the bit that repeats and it’s also the bit that grows.
Matt:
Yeah.
Sarah:
Yeah. So that, that’s really important. And that’s probably the bottom line of it. Like if you’re afraid, you actually really do need to face it. If you’re not afraid, you have a multitude of choices of how you solve it. It’s, it’s, it’s very different. Of course, you, you don’t feel so charged by it also.
Matt:
Yeah. And you’ve just sort of really honed in on that for just by this conversation, is that why people actually get paralyzed in this situation? They’ve, they’ve dealt with it nine times in the 10th person. They’re paralyzed by it, it’s the relationship, it’s, there’s something underlying, there’s an underlying emotion there that causes them to, to not be able to react the same way that they would actually would’ve reacted for the other nine people, for example. So you can really sense that.
Sarah:
Yeah. And, and one of the things that’s useful to know, although it looks like perhaps all of those different situations are more or less the same. One of the things that I found is that it’s always a slightly different pattern. So how you resolve something with this person and that person, this person, each time it’s a little bit different. It’s not exactly the same. And so that 10th person where you kind of freak out inside and you can’t do it, actually there’s a very specific pattern going on in there, which isn’t the same as the others. And when you get into that deeper work, you start to look at what is that precise pattern that’s going on with this person that, and, and, and that’s, that’s where you start to be able to engage with it and, and open it up and change it. It doesn’t then you’re not caught in it if you don’t keep repeating it anymore.
Matt:
So something that I just thought of then is, is around this concept of that maybe those nine people you felt in a position of strength or in a position of power or a position where you felt confident or comfortable or rational or reasonable or calm or, you know, and then the 10th person or the 10th situation is where, you know, that completely goes and you end up being in this completely vulnerable state. And I, there’s something in that that I think I see as a pattern over and over again.
Sarah:
Yeah. And if only people knew that that vulnerable state actually is where that’s actually the, the birth ground, so to speak, of a lot of creativity, as long as you can face it. But if you’re afraid of being vulnerable or you are afraid of feeling weak, you won’t face it. And that’s when you try to run away. But if you can actually just face the fact, I feel weak here, even to admit that to yourself, will start you making a different decision then you, you’ll, you’ll say, well, who can I talk to about this rather than, I’m not gonna tell anybody what’s going on because I feel so ashamed of it. You start to make different decisions. You talk to somebody, you look for somebody to advise you, you look for somebody who can help you to feel stronger, and you start to change the pattern that way. So the, the starting point of it all is to face that vulnerability. There’s nothing wrong with feeling vulnerable. There’s nothing wrong with feeling weak or out of your depth or I’m not up to this situation. We all face things like that all the time, but it’s how you respond. If you can say, yeah, I don’t think I’m up to it, then you can say, so what do I need? What support or what resources or what help or whatever so that I can be up to it.
Matt:
That’s so true. Where I’ve identified it and maybe called out that sort of, and then there’s acknowledgement of that, you can work with it and there’s something to then progress and get stronger through that particular process. So that is so true around the acknowledgement of it. And I say that over and over again and, and where I’ve had conversations with people saying, hang on a minute, why do you feel that way about the situation compared to these other ones? What’s in it for there? And it feels like that there might be an element of fear around this, you know? And then sometimes they’ll, you know, the bravado will come and go, I’m not fearful about anything. But then the acknowledgement really helps the breakthrough from that perspective.
Sarah:
Yeah. You can actually do something with them then. Whereas if they put on the bravado, it’s much harder to, to work with that.
Matt:
Yeah. And I think that’s a great starting point and start a pattern to be able to then, as you say, overcome it. And once we overcome it once, then we may see that pattern break and we don’t have to deal with it again.
Sarah:
Yeah. There was a very famous book called Face Your Fear or Face the Fear and Do It Anyway. I think for me, like if you, if you recognize that fear is playing a role, and if you’re feeling in any way upset or triggered, then fear is playing a role. If you can face your fear gently, you have to do it gently and kindly not, you know, not be a roaring bull trying to kind of bravado out your fear, that’s just going to make it stronger. But just gently face the fear. You don’t usually have to do it anyway. You don’t have to plow through them. What will happen is that a better solution will come up. It’s, it’s a much gentler process than we tend to think.
Matt:
And I also want to make sure that, that the people that you know, have anxiety or are anxious about certain things, you know, the worst thing you can say to those sorts of people is Well just suck it up and get on with it, sort of type thing. And that’s not the answer to what we’re talking about here either. It’s, it’s, there’s a difference. I don’t want people to think about, oh, they’re just saying, well, just overcome your fears and face them and you’ll be fine. Because that’s a very, very challenging, difficult thing to do for, for a lot of people.
Sarah:
That’s why I said, you need to be gentle. It really is. And often people need help. You need help to learn how to do that. Don’t just assume it’s like, oh, well I’ve never faced my fears before. Now I can just turn around and face them. It’s like as easy as that, of course not. If you have a habit, many of us have learned habits from childhood of not facing fears. And now I would say we have almost a cultural habit of not facing pain and not facing fear. We don’t want our children to experience pain and we don’t want our children to experience fear. And of course they do anyway because you can’t take that part of their experience away. But in the end, what I’ve seen is people who don’t face those things, they get stronger and stronger and stronger until you are absolutely, you have no choice anymore. It is easier if you can admit it a bit earlier and get some kind of support in order to be able to do that so that you can find out how do you do it? What does it mean? Face your fear so easy, like you say, to say the words, what does it mean to actually do it? Fear is very elusive. It’s like the last thing most of us ever want to feel. It’s just like disappears when you look at it.
Matt:
Yeah, it’s certainly been enlightening to, to go through that process of starting just to why people are sort of get paralyzed and behave the way they do and are happy to give advice, but, you know, find it difficult to take their own advice from that scenario. But really when we, when we work through that, you can see that there’s a deep emotion that’s associated with it that could be generated from, you know, experiences in this life or past life as you’re talking about. So, you know, I think it’s really important and, and the process to help you overcome that is, is the acknowledgement of it, as you say.
Sarah:
Yeah, that’s a really good starting point. And from there everything can change much more easily. So it’s almost like we’ve gone from the beginning to the beginning, but it’s a good beginning.
Matt:
Exactly. Well, I think it’s been a good chat once again, Sarah, in, in regards to, you know, helping people, you know, navigate through some of the complexity of what they deal with on a daily basis because it business is complex and there’s always things that get thrown at us and where effectively human beings that, that have vulnerabilities and, and have flaws that we all have to overcome as business owners as well at the same time. So I think you know, it’s good to, to have this platform and acknowledgement of, of being able to have these conversations that hopefully spark some thought process in people where they go, actually, now I understand what I could possibly do to, to have a better life in business.
Sarah:
Yeah. And born out of many similar experiences. So thank you Matt.
Matt:
Thanks Sarah.
Sarah:
You’ve been listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. If you’d like some insight into the spirit in which you do business, a great place to start is by looking at your relationship with money. Find out more by taking the Money scorecard@moneyscorecards.app and we’ll be back next week.
