Running a business can be hard and we can’t do it alone, so the people we surround ourselves with make a real difference. It’s important to find the right kind of support for you, and it’s also important to make sure that your support systems work well for you.
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 81, Support for Business Owners with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
Today I’m going to talk about something that I’m not a hundred percent certain that I’m going to be overly articulate about what we’re going to talk about, and it can go off in many different ways, but it’s something I’ve been feeling just recently. I’ve had this as a recurring pattern and a recurring thought for not only me but also for business owners in general that I serve and support and look after. And it’s kind of in this topic of the difficulty and the complexity of running businesses and how you navigate through that successfully. And sometimes the loneliness that comes with being a business owner as well. And the amount of stuff that goes on in your head on a daily basis and problems to solve and opinions to deal with. And there’s always something to think about. There’s always something to solve. There’s always things to mull over and none of it’s very easy. There’s a lot of it, it’s quite difficult and there’s usually not a clear answer a lot of the time. There’s usually complexity associated with it. And what I find happens, and it happens with me a lot, and I know it happens with a lot of business owners and people in general, is this self chatter that goes on in your head. The talking that goes on in your head around and around and around about what should I do next? How do I handle this particular thing? And so I was reflecting about the fact that this becomes a recurring pattern and that we fall back into these scenarios. And I do know that there are ways to get out of that. And I watched how I can help other people get out of it. And I find what works for business owners and their reflection back to me when I’ve spoken to them is by just having a conversation with them. Okay? So when I’m mentoring business owners or supporting them or advising them, a lot of the time they’ll talk to me and they’ll talk and they’ll talk and they’ll talk.
Sarah:
That’s what I do to you, isn’t it?
Matt:
Exactly right? And that’s what you do to me as well. And so what happens is that they go, oh, you know, I feel so much better now. Not because they’ve just talked it out, but they’ve had somebody to bounce it off, right? So therefore it’s this concept of verbalizing what’s been going on in your head, and you’re going round and round around and then a different perspective to bounce it back so you can actually listen to it back, when you talk it out, you can hear it coming back in again, and you’ve got somebody who can actually guide that conversation rather than you just going round and round in circles. And the power of that, I find is huge. So the business owner feels so much better, and I know me as a business owner as well, feels so much better when you actually find people that you can have conversations with. And what I’m especially finding at the moment is that there’s this real feeling about silence or a feeling about loneliness, about making decisions. Because, you know, we’ve got the whole thing around covid and vaccine and opinions and what we can and can’t do as employees and employers and there’s a whole lot of things, decisions that are having to be made on a larger scale. And I’m finding nowadays even that sometimes you can’t have certain conversations with certain people. You have to choose who you have a conversation with because there could be a violent reaction to it, right? So for me, it’s making sure you can find the right person to have that conversation with so you don’t end up in a worse situation by having the conversation than a better situation. So it’s almost finding the right people around you to keep you sane, is the thing that I’m feeling at the moment, and I just wanted to sort of explore that topic a bit further from your point of view, because you do the same thing that I do, you actually in some regards keep people on track, okay. Or keep people moving in the right direction or keep people sane, is what I call it.
Sarah:
I just do it in groups. And you speak to them one at a time, which is much more demanding. I have groups of people and it’s like whoever sticks their hand up, but that’s a lot easier, I think. But yes, you know, it’s really interesting because I was thinking, I was talking last night about something that was sort of not heavy, but like something that I know that I need to work out and I know that I need to get to the root principles of it to find the solution and I was sitting there, it’s like, I don’t even know who to talk with about this, the people who I normally talk to about everything like that, it just didn’t feel right. And I sat there and it, that made me realize, and, as I’m listening to you, there are conversations I’ll have with you, for example, and then there are conversations I’ll have with somebody else who I know who I speak to really regularly. And I know that I can just go there and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. This is what’s going on. And I, yes, I work out a lot, you know, this, like, I actually, I don’t usually need someone to tell me anything. I need to listen to myself talking and I know that that’s the way I operate. And I’ve had to learn to be a bit kind of, I feel selfish in a way when I do it, but I know that it works and I know that it’s more selfish not to do it. Like if I don’t clarify things, I have a mess all around me that’s more selfish, almost sometimes I feel like I’m using people. Like I just need somebody there, I need to listen to what I’m saying so that I can find the clarity in it. And it was very uncomfortable for me for a long time to do that. But I realized that if I didn’t do that, I was walking around with kind of like a mess in my head and that was awful. So it feels really important to me that we learn what we need as individuals and how to get that in a way that’s going to work for both people. Mostly it works for me because I can do the same thing back to somebody else. And so they’re willing to listen to me because they know that I’ll listen to them as well and we have a fairly good arrangement, and then I can be selfish, you know, when I need to be. But to not have that, I don’t know how I would manage without the support systems that I have.
Matt:
It’s funny you just reminded me of a situation that was a running joke in my business. So, a previous business partner that I had in a previous business, I used to walk into his office and talk and do exactly that. And he worked out, he’s an intelligent man, he worked out to not actually interrupt me and actually just let me talk. And every now and again he’d smile and laugh and nod and you know, and I’d be off on a tangent about a whole lot of stuff. And then, at the end of it I’d go, so the this, and he just laughed and he goes, yeah, that’s right, and I’ll go, oh. And we’d have a laugh about it, but the whole thing is we’d have a laugh about it. I used to call it the room of truth basically because that’s how I could get to the moment of clarity by doing what you are talking about by my technique was to talk it out. Okay? And I didn’t necessarily need somebody to tell me the answer because that actually used to derail. Because I’ve also had an experience where somebody’s actively listening and trying to solve my problem while I’m talking and I’ve worked out, that’s actually no good for me. This is a personal thing that’s no good for me because they’re putting their own layers onto this particular thing that may not necessarily be relevant to exactly what I’m trying to talk about at the time.
Sarah:
And even if it’s right, even if they’ve got the right answer that you’re going to come to, you actually have to come to it yourself. So you’ve got the, for me, it’s all about the energy. Something happens when you go through the process if somebody just gives it to you. Like I don’t usually engage with it fully. I don’t get it until I get it kind of all through myself. And that’s part of the reason why I have to talk about things.
Matt:
So it’s really interesting and I wonder how many more people that are like us that actually do need to speak about it and if I probably start to reflect upon the hundreds or the thousands of businesses that I’ve managed and coached over the years, I think there is a DNA in business owners, especially that actually do need to go through that particular process where you just sit and listen and create a space for them to actually go through that process as you say. Sometimes you probably, you know, there’s a bit of experience where you might need to sort of interject and guide to keep the conversation going, which is part of I suppose, our expertise in managing outcomes. But a lot of the time it’s them sort of just getting it out of their head. So then, you are there it’s almost like, it’s almost like a backboard, you’re bouncing back to them so they can hear you. It’s like an echo, they can hear themselves by talking to you and you are probably just acknowledging and summarizing their thoughts back to them. And I found there’s so much power in that for me, and the importance of it for all the people that I talk to for our business owners and, and I reflect about some of the work that I do and I often call myself a cheerleader and a cheerleader because I think there’s so much pressure on business owners and there’s so many people probably coming from a negative instinct or wanting something from you or a force against you. And you know, I’ve learned that over the years we actually want somebody on our side, we actually want somebody to support us and go, it’s okay, and be there to listen to our issues and concerns and lots of stuff. Acknowledge the great things about it and acknowledge the great things about the situation and then go to solve the problem or help them go through that process of solving the problem. And I find there’s a really good process in that for all of us to learn from in our interactions with each other, that if we can actually be there, and first and foremost is that if I think about the process for us is, or for me is that first of all listen and acknowledge and go that’s really, that’s cool or that’s hard. Or you know, I think that acknowledgment is so important about their situation their achievement, or the good things that were going on. And then go through that particular process because too many times people just jump to the negative or the next thing or solving the problem. And I had an interesting experience on the weekend that I had somebody come to my house to look at you know, what they could do with, I’ve already, you know, pretty much renovated the whole house, but there’s certain parts of it that need to be renovated and the person came in and very well meaning and very good at what they do and you know, a huge amount of expertise, but stood there and gone don’t like that, that, that, that, picked out all the faults with it. And I got deflated and I actually felt embarrassed about my house and I love my house and I love what we’ve done to it. My wife’s done an amazing job in terms of, you know, rebuild of this particular place, but I actually felt embarrassed. And I wonder whether the same principle applies that we actually if you have people picking at you all the time, you end up feeling embarrassed about your business or embarrassed about what are you actually doing. And that’s where I think it’s so important to find people that don’t make you feel that way and then give you the support that you need as a business owner to then go through a process and help you make decisions and ultimately enjoy the experience, so to speak, rather than always feeling heavy about everything. I know I’ve introduced a lot of concepts or topics, but I think it’s, it’s very focused around this aspect.
Sarah:
Well, one of the things that I’m reflecting on as I listen to you is the fact that so many people who go into business, like if you are doing it, it’s normal for you. It’s just what you do. But actually, as you say all the time, it does take a lot of guts to do it and to stick at it. And it isn’t normal because it’s not what most people are doing. And I know in my own environment and amongst many of the business owners that I know that there is actually a lot of loneliness. Not so much I think because they don’t know people, they know loads of people usually, but because there aren’t other people around who think like they do and especially where people are making decisions that are out of the mainstream. I mean, running a business is out of the mainstream almost anyway, just being willing to put your hand up time and time again, stand up, lead, make decisions, and then when people are doing it in a way that’s a bit less mainstream anyhow, which has been my experience, like for me it was always normal to do what I did, but recently I’ve come to realize that I’ve kind of, I’m semi adapted to thinking of myself as a freak. And so I feel like it’s normal, but I wasn’t aware that there are a lot of things that I probably don’t talk about because I’m sort of used to being pigeonholed and I see this quite a lot where people have no one else that they can talk to who actually really gets what they’re doing in their business and why they’re doing it and what it’s about. And it’s an extraordinary relief for them when they do start to connect with people where they don’t have to hold back and they can actually talk openly about what they’re doing.
Matt:
That’s interesting. I had a friend of mine the other day who’s in business say, I’m thinking about, you know, whether I should go and get a business coach again because he had some in the past. And so it’s an interesting conversation because effectively I’m a business advisor, business coach sort of type thing. But I said to him, I said, you’re really smart, you know what you’re doing, you know how to go about it, you know, he said, yeah, but you know, it’s the bit that I don’t, that’s what I’m trying to work out and find. I said that’s exactly right and it’s a bit that you don’t know that you’re looking for and you want somebody to come in with a silver bullet. But a lot of the time what I’ve found and this is what I explained to this particular person is that really what you need is the environment and the space to come up with the answers associated with it. You need somebody who’s going to champion that through from that point of view. And I think that that’s what we’re really talking about here it’s finding people that provide you with the space and the guidance and the guide rails for then you to be able to get the best out of yourself. Because fundamentally we know the answers to most of our problems is probably what I think. And as you said before, you just need to talk it out because you know you’ll probably find the answer if you talk it out. And I think most people are like that, but then they’ll go and look for a coach who’s looking to give them what they want, the silver bullet, they want the piece of magic that’s going to turn into million dollar business into a hundred million dollar business sort of type thing.
Sarah:
And that doesn’t work, does it?
Matt:
It doesn’t work. My experience is that actually, it’s really surrounding yourself with people that get you okay, that understand you, that are able to support you and give you the environment, the space for you to flourish and develop. And that’s kind of what I’m starting to recognize is the power that we have with our wisdom and our knowledge and experience as business advisors is that, you know, we don’t have to come up with a strategy, it’s not always about the million dollar strategy so to speak. It’s actually giving you the space to be able to.
Sarah:
Perhaps come up, up with your own, to come up with your own strategy that actually suits your business and the DNA of your business and the culture and spirit of it, which is different from somebody else’s. And that’s certainly been really, really important for me, was to have the space to come up with my way of doing it that actually suits this business. Because I had to do that and I see that that’s the case for most people. There aren’t really cookie-cutter businesses actually. We talk about things like that and we talk about blueprints and all of those things. And it’s not that they’re not valid, but for me, the level of engagement that’s needed to actually make something work really well, it can’t be done with that kind of mental frame of, oh, I’ll just take something off the shelf and stick it in this particular context and then it’ll work. Doing business is something quite different from that. It takes real engagement. Like you need to have to be totally in it and care about it and maybe that’s also one of the things I see in the people who support me. I always feel that they really actually care, and it’s not, you know, do they, there’s this real feeling that people actually care.
Matt:
They care and they’re on your side, they’re champions, they’re the cheerleader. They’re also intelligent people because I mean, usually, through that process they actually help you provide clarity and they actually help you determine strategy and come up with the answers. And there’s probably going to be an element where there’s a bounce off each other. So there is still, they’re not just there as a completely empty vessel so to speak. They’re there as somebody who adds value to the conversation. But it’s so important to get that balance right, that you’re not just looking to somebody to get all the answers that you are actually having somebody who’s able to help bring those answers out of you, I think is the importance of it. And that’s the thing, I’m recognizing how important it is in my life and my client’s life, that that’s what they really need and that’s what they’re really looking for.
Sarah:
I have had some very interesting experiences with somebody who has helped me a great deal and sometimes he starts telling me things maybe that I should do or whatever, and I’m thinking, hold on a moment, that’s not right. But there’s a part in me that knows like, well if somebody’s saying something to me, there might be value in it, I should listen to it. And there’s a whole lot of me that’s saying no. And one of the things that I had to learn to do and which was very hard, it’s a little bit like what I said earlier, but even more is, there’s something I’m looking for in that situation and I’ll know when I find it because there’s a kind of peace and clarity and everything just feels right when you find it. Most people who I’ve spoken to in the past until in more recent years, they would always give up before I got to where I needed to get to. And I didn’t have the persistence to keep going to get what I needed. So I would feel like, oh, I’m using your time, you are helping me, I should respect you. And the thing that shifted everything for me was when I started actually getting what I needed from it and finding the people who are willing to go all the way with me. And that’s a really, I think it’s a very unusual quality and I can think some conversations I’ve had with you where it was quite obvious probably that you sort of knew the answers, but I had to fight for myself. I’m fighting to find that place of peace. Because it doesn’t matter having the answer if I don’t feel any peace. It’s like, thank you. But that willingness to fight for what you need yourself, not what everyone else thinks you need. And the willingness on the other side for somebody to actually stay there with you to understand that they might have what they think are the answers, but you need to find what’s an answer for you and for them to be willing to let go of their own opinions sometimes without denying what they’re seeing or what they’re experiencing. That’s a very rare art, I think it’s like there’s a kind of feistiness you’ve got to be willing to fight almost for something. Both people have to, you have to be able to let go and surrender to each other as well. And you have to be really clear that you’re actually looking for something that’s going to make a difference and for me, it’s about going all the way. I have to go all the way, once I get onto one of those things that I’m trying to clarify, kind of nut out whatever it is. And I’m immensely grateful for people who are willing to do that with me.
Matt:
And I think how you’re talking about feeling guilty about people’s time and that sort of thing. I’ve found the technique that works for me when I feel that I’m either doing it for myself or doing that role for somebody else is actually framing it and actually having the permission conversation up front to say, look, and I actually have said this to people in the past, I said, I don’t need you to actually solve or answer, I just need you to listen and to interject appropriately with a nod or a yes or a grunt or whatever it actually is. Or no, I actually need your opinion on what I’m about to say. So I find it so better for me when that happens and when it doesn’t happen, I find it very frustrating because I think, hang on a minute, we had this conversation last year or six months ago where you said this and now you’re saying this and that’s not making any sense because there’s no reference point back to historic and I’m not too sure why you’re saying what you’re saying today because you’re scrambling, your brain’s scrambling. And maybe this is the way my brain works and this is what I need, is that I need acknowledgment of maybe a previous conversation that we might have had that’s similar to the one that we’re about to have that I might have a completely different view of or a different conversation about. Because otherwise I scramble and I go, this makes no sense because you said X before and now you’re saying y. And so I really do value this whole framing of the conversation or the setup and the permission to say, look, please, I’d like to create a space where I can do this. Okay. And then I don’t feel so guilty or so bad and vice versa, the other person doesn’t feel that, and they know what their responsibility is for that particular conversation. And it makes life so much easier. I find for me, when you actually seek that permission and the emotion goes away from like, whether it’s guilt or, or confusion or whatever, whatever, actually it is
Sarah:
That’s a really good idea because one of the hardest things is when somebody is giving ideas and you are rejecting them or, or I am rejecting it over and over again because it’s like, oh done that, you know, we’ve been there, you don’t understand my business. It drives me crazy when people start to try to give me ideas about something they don’t even understand, and it feels so unkind and I’ve been taught, you know, you’re supposed to say yes and you’re not supposed to object to things and reject things, but what am I supposed to do? So I think that that framing thing is really brilliant because then you can say what it is that you need and if that other person doesn’t want to provide that for you, they can say so, and then you go and find someone else to talk to.
Matt:
Because if you use the example when we have conversations and you know, obviously we’ve worked together for a long period of time, so we’ve kind of worked each other out in terms of what each other’s needs are without sometimes having the conversation. But you will, you’ll do what you said before, you’ll fight for something. And I’m going, why is she fighting with me? Why is she fighting with me? Because she feels so strongly about it. I’ve already worked this out. I don’t need to, she just needs to listen to me and move on from this conversation. And then I remember that that’s the way that you do it. But if you said to me upfront in this conversation, by the way Matt, I’m just gonna fight with you for the next sort of half an hour about this particular thing because I need to go through this process and I’m happy for you to object against me and I’m happy to have this confrontational for a better word, conversation because that’ll help me get clarity or help me get to that place of happiness because I’ve worked through it. Sometimes if you say that it makes the journey so much easier for both parties is kind of what I feel.
Sarah:
But the problem is I don’t usually know that that’s what’s going to happen. I don’t think I can frame that one very well.
Matt:
That’s alright, so maybe I’ll have to call it and call the time out and say, hang on a minute, are we playing this game today? Are we doing that? But I think that the lesson that I’ve learned from that, just by this conversation too, what it helps remind me is that maybe we do have to almost step out of the conversations that we’re having and almost act like the independent reference and say, okay, so what’s actually happening right now is X. So just so everybody knows this is where X is and this is where Y looks like they are and therefore, is everybody okay that they’re the rules for continuing on with this particular conversation? You get the best outcome.
Sarah:
I think sometimes on Zoom because if people do things like that, to me it’s like ahh, Stop it. I don’t like it when people like this is what’s going on now. It’s like I just want it to go on. Whatever’s going on, it needs to go on.
Matt:
Well maybe that doesn’t work for you then, maybe it only works for me in terms of just framing it, just makes me feel better when I frame stuff. I don’t know.
Sarah:
No, I love your framing thing. I remember when you first said that to me once you said, look, if you could just tell me at the beginning of the conversation that this is where you are and that this is what you need, I’m fine with that because we’ve got somehow crossed with each other in the wrong places with it. And that really struck me. And if I know that that’s the case, then I will do it. Sometimes I don’t really know. I just know there’s something I need to sort out. And I know that people can come up with all kinds of ideas and we had a case of that recently in our business and it was about a pricing thing and I felt like I was taking a ridiculous amount of the team’s time, but I also knew that it was really, really important and if I hadn’t been able to work through it, you actually did come up with a solution in the end, but you came up with it at a point where I’d worked through all the issues so I could see it was a solution. And I know that if you’d brought it up earlier, it would’ve just felt really difficult to position to ask for that money in that particular way. And it’s really interesting because once we’d done that and it was clear and settled, I’d put it in the documentation, and not one single person questioned it or had a problem with it. And you know, it was a bizarre thing because it was people were having to pay for two products at the same time, which is not an easy ask. You know you want things to be simple, everybody got it and I know it was a very good example because I know that it was because we actually went all the way, and yeah, I felt a bit embarrassed at the time. I felt like, oh, you’re being pigheaded again, Sarah yourself. All those things that have been said to me all through my life about the bad things about me. But what I notice, and this is perhaps useful, is that when I allow myself to be bad, that’s almost always when I get solutions, what stops me is when I’m trying to be nice or trying to be good or trying to be what the other person wants me to be. If I give myself permission to be the kind of stubborn, difficult obstreperous kind of, and I’m not trying to be any of those things, but I can feel that that’s what I am. If I give myself permission to show the bad side of me, not nasty, but just not to hide where I am, that is very powerful and I appreciate the people in my life who are willing to see that. Like they see me and they don’t judge me.
Matt:
And I see this too around, it’s almost like a vibration. You’ve gotta actually create the vibration, and that’s what I was hearing you say when I’m bad. Okay, well let’s, let’s talk about that as more of a violent vibration that goes on that you need to have to create movement, right?
Sarah:
It’s a kind of friction in a way. I think it’s a kind of friction. It’s like parts that are rubbing against each other because they’re not resolved, but they also create a spark that creates a solution.
Matt:
And I see this and I actually experienced it today in terms of a conversation I was having with somebody in my business and there was frustration and I could feel the frustration. The frustration was a vibration and it was actually an energy, right? And I could sit back and look at it and appreciate that it was an energy and that it was a friction and it was all that sort of stuff, even though I could have actually just reacted to it. I’m just going, no, we need to do this. We need to have this vibration. So appreciate the vibration, appreciate the friction. And it was actually really good to get put into a different perspective rather than object against him, against the situation that we had at the time. And I’m finding the acknowledgment of that’s really important too. So it’s finding the people around you that can actually support you but also allow you to rub up against them from a friction perspective to create that spark, so then it becomes very comfortable for you and you’re right, it’s like you said before, taking it all the way through so we’re able to actually get to the end of it and somebody doesn’t bail early. Because if somebody bails early it’s gonna be horrible. You know, it’s just the worst thing.
Sarah:
That’s awful. That used to happen to me a lot that people would just bail and leave me halfway through, I’d gone halfway through this kind of internal battle because the battle’s in me actually, I’m not battling with someone else, I’m battling with myself and then they walk out on it and I’m just left in the battle. It’s like I used to feel so stranded, but I think that I was also bailing on myself to some extent. Like I probably felt so uncomfortable about myself and there’s something in this about respecting yourself enough and your own needs enough to get the support that you need to find a solution to that because if you don’t respect yourself, you will not tend to find support that’s strong enough I don’t think. You have to actually respect yourself a lot to be able to get the kind of support that you really need. Which isn’t always convenient and it’s not always beautiful. But it’s actually functional. It works. And that’s more satisfying than anything else.
Matt:
And it’s good to have this conversation even though it sort of started somewhere and I knew it was going to evolve, but probably the big reminder and aha moment is that you said it before about beautiful and bad. I call it beautiful and ugly, right? So the ugly part of us as human beings is when we get into this frustration, friction pushing against us, argumentative aspect of when we don’t feel like we’re being, you know, nice, perfect human beings so to speak.
Sarah:
That’s when you turn towards the window.
You start speaking to the window instead of speaking to me.
Matt:
You know, the gloss goes and the bin here goes and you’re left with the hard sort of rough wood. I think that appreciating the hard, rough surface, because typically you need that to then solve whatever we’re solving. You need that friction to be able to rub together. Like you talked about from the spark perspective, because the veneers not gonna get there. The niceties aren’t going to get there, you need the two hard pieces of wood to rub against each other to get that sort of type of friction to get a result. And I think that appreciating that and remembering to appreciate the friction and to create and to give it space to expand and take it all the way through is a really good reminder of when we get into these situations as we do as business owners, feeling like there’s a lot of resistance, a lot of friction, a lot of things that are going on, but still finding the space where, with somebody that you trust and that you know, that you can actually have that conversation with to alleviate it, to then go back and create the spark or the pressure or whatever it actually needs again. So I think there’s a lot in that in terms of how we need to find the right space with the right people and then frame it the right way to get the best result. Maybe there’s something in all of that.
Sarah:
Yes, and the thing that is standing out for me is about when there’s a fight and often there is a fight in these situations, it’s a fight for something and then you don’t need to fight against people. And there’s something very powerful about fighting for something. And I think that it relieves a great deal of the pressure that many people experience to fight against.
Matt:
Because they think it’s a personal thing, when you’re fighting for something that’s no longer about another person, it’s about a thing that you feel passionate.
Sarah:
You’re really trying to win something that’s better than what you have at the moment. There’s a contribution in that fighting for which is quite different and it elevates what you are doing, but it elevates by going through the ugliness and the badness very often. And then you find a way to transcend it and I always think about all these different colors. We’re not all just like pink and light blue, it’s like all the dark colors and the murky colors. They’re all part of it as well and it makes a richer life.
Matt:
Yes, it’s been good. It actually settles me down sometimes even just to remember this type of thing because I know that’s the value and that’s what we do intuitively as individuals in the way that we go about our business and it’s what we need as well, but we can get caught up in it and these are the patterns I spoke about at the start, we actually still fall into the bad habits and bad patterns of not remembering this stuff and getting frustrated and not seeing the beauty that can come from the friction and the frustration and the tension that goes on, and then also making sure that we’re seeking refuge from it sometimes where you have people that are able to support you in that space as well. Because I think that we need relief from it too. Because it can’t always be friction, it can’t always be that. And I think that creating that space and being that cheerleader and that support, it’s really important to find people that can actually do that around you.
Sarah:
And have a laugh about it because it’s pretty funny really.
Matt:
It is funny, and we spoke about something earlier today, you were just laughing at me, and that’s a good thing too because that diffuses a thing and you go, it doesn’t really matter when somebody laughs at you, you go, actually, you’re right. It’s pretty funny. It doesn’t really need any sort of real energy associated with it.
Sarah:
Absolutely. Laughing is better than crying.
Matt:
Exactly right. So anyway, I think it’s been a good chat about the things that we do on a daily basis and what we need to support ourselves to navigate through the complexity of business, to keep ourselves sane and operational, which is hugely important in what we’re doing.
Sarah:
Well, thank you for keeping me sane. Thanks.
Matt:
Thank You.
Sarah:
You’ve been listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. If you’d like some insight into the spirit in which you do business, a great place to start is by looking at your relationship with money. Find out more by taking the Money scorecard@moneyscorecards.app and we’ll be back next week.