In a world that’s demanding a more conscious and responsible approach to business, how do we bring our different disciplines and expertise to the same table? How do we combine the linear with a more holistic approach? Who’s responsible for the wider purpose and impact of the business? And how do we manage so many different responsibilities without going completely crazy?
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 62 Business in a New Paradigm with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt. I have a question. Somebody sent me an email the other day and copied it to you and she was saying kudos to you for the podcast that we are doing together. And she made this little comment that has made me think a lot like comes back to me every single day. And she said she’s a former accountant and she’s now working in what she termed conscious business, I think. And she said that it’s been really hard for her at times to shift the paradigm from the traditional and technical way that an accountant works to this different way of thinking, which we describe as conscious business, whatever that means. And I think it could be quite vague even what it means. And it made me really think about you and the fact that your career, you started in the tax office, which is about as accountant as you could possibly, possibly get, you’ve had to do years and years of tax and compliance and all the stuff that accountants have to do. And yes, you are a brilliant business mentor, so you’ve got this other thing, you’re not like what we all think of as an accountant. You’re a completely different being from that, but still at the heart of your business, you always have to take care of all that stuff because if you don’t, you could be in really big trouble. And it, so it just made me realize that in terms of thinking about business and looking at business, and we often talk in this podcast about the difference in the way that I think about things because I’m not very good at putting, bringing things down to numbers, for example, which accountants do all the time. I started to think, well what’s it like for you being you kind of grappling with and working with the way that I work, for example, and people perhaps more like me because that might not be very easy. So I was very curious to get your insight.
Matt:
Wow, you’re actually asking me what goes on in my brain, which is a scary place a lot of the time because it’s, it’s a, it’s a pretty crazy place in there in terms of, and it’s probably a good conversation topic to discuss because there were so many things that came up then when you were talking. First and foremost what is a conscious business for me? I’m going, what’s the difference between what I do in a conscious business? So that good definition from that point of view, the fact that you’ve, you’ve quite rightly called me an accountant and labeled me as an accountant because that’s my tool of trade, that’s what I’m educated in doing. And then from there I’m thinking but I don’t really call myself an accountant. I would classify myself as a business owner. Okay? So I’m, I sort of see myself as a business owner, not necessarily as an accountant, although I am an accountant at the end of the day and it is my tool of trade and it’s what I do and it’s what I sell and it’s what I’m practicing. And so all these, so many thoughts came up when you are talking then worth exploring because really what you’re talking about there is saying, well, well how do you operate in this world when you are dealing with people that might not necessarily be in the same world as you? And I think that’s really what you’re talking about there because this person that wrote the email said to you, hey, I was an accountant and now I’m a conscious business owner. Okay, well that’s interesting that you label an accountant as one thing and therefore this, it puts it in a box, what’s in that box? Okay, that’s in conflict potentially with what’s in the conscious business box, maybe that they’re not in conflict, maybe there’s some sort of connecting point there in between. And, I’m starting to think about that in terms of my life. And I do often feel very conflicted around the traditions and the knowledge that I have and the experience and what I’ve been taught and the tradition of it compared to a modern world and a modern way of thinking and an evolution. Now the world evolves all the time. So we have to evolve. And accountants have had to evolve over the years going from, you know, paper-based to abacus to, you know, to calculate us to all that sort of type thing and just spreadsheets and then really moving into the more of the advisory sort of aspect of it. So there’s been an evolution in our industry, like there has to have been in everything. And so lots of, lots of things to talk about really in terms of this particular topic. And, but first and foremost, I think that where I’ve, the first thing to talk about is this concept of definition. Well, what are you really talking about when you’re thinking about being an accountant and then being a conscious business owner for example? Like, what is that and, and why should those things be in conflict or why do you see those things in conflict?
Sarah:
Yeah, I think it’s a really good question. And even as I said the word conscious business, I was questioning for myself, what does that really mean? It’s become a sort of shortcut for something. And I would start by saying that I think that there are probably some areas where there appears to be a conflict. Most of it is a question of they can sit alongside each other or one’s included in the other and the other, you know, they can go both ways. But I, having worked a lot with healing, I know that there are times like healing comes, works in a different paradigm from medicine from being a doctor. Now there’s a lot of overlap because you could say, well, in some areas of healing or natural health, people prescribe natural medicines instead of synthetic medicines. They do diagnoses and they may come out with a homeopathic diagnosis rather than a medical diagnosis, but they use the same kind of tools to come out with a different answer. But there are also areas where they’re like different languages that don’t really speak, they don’t speak the same language. And traditionally in those, in that field, we’ve talked about holistic. A linear, a medical model is more linear. It will look at a single organ, for example, in isolation from the other organs. Whereas most of the natural systems will look in a holistic way at how all the organs work together. Those two things that they don’t sit next to each other. You come out with a radically different approach depending which way you go. And I use that example because it’s a very everyday example that is quite relatable. And I think that the paradigms in business, what we’re beginning to do in business now is say, how can we look at business in a genuinely holistic integrated way when our business structures even don’t require us to do that? So a private limited company, which there’s some form of in probably most countries or for most people who are listening to this podcast it’s a profit making company. There’s no requirement within the structure of the company that you look holistically at the impact of that company. There’s no requirement that you treat people in a particular way as, as long as you adhere to the law or that you look at the wider impact of what you’re doing on the environmental communities or any of those other things. Now those are some aspects that have been brought up in, we’ve got B Corps that make you do those kinds of things. So social responsibility, a more holistic way of looking at things where, for example, employees, like in many companies not in yours, employees can I think feel very much like cogs in a machine. And we know that and we use that expression and we use it because people really do have that experience and so I think that the, when people talk about conscious business, they’re talking about a business that has a purpose that is bigger than, it goes beyond the activities of the business. They’re looking at the wider impact of the business and that would definitely be a part of it, not only the direct impact of the business. That would be one very important part of it. And I think at least if we can start with the word holistic that begins to give us some area of the territory of conscious business. That there is a holistic approach and therefore all the different parts are seen are seen as a functioning whole. Now, to me, in a way that’s just a human way of doing business, it’s so obvious that all the parts are part of a whole and a business is a part of a community and it’s part of a world, but it’s not obvious to many people in business because they don’t actually think about those things. And we know that they don’t and we see the consequences of it. So I think that’s where the contrast lies. It’s not actually about you and me and you personally, but it is about, there is, there are ways of thinking that for example you probably see in many of the business owners who you work with that are more traditional and are more linear. And that, and, and linear is not the same as holistic, that linear, I would see it say that linear is a part of holistic, that holistic contains linear within it. But a holistic way is a more expanded,way of doing things. And probably the reason why you and I get on with each other is because you are pretty holistic.
Matt:
It’s interesting some of the things you spoke about then around business and being holistic. I think there’s some fantastic examples and great examples in small, medium and large business which do demonstrate this holistic approach to, to business. And to say that we don’t is probably not necessarily a hundred percent true. I think that it’s not, it, it’s not the majority across all businesses in the world, but there’s obviously an evolution and you know, it started years ago when they talked about triple bottom line in terms of, you know, the social responsible impact and the economic impact and the also the environmental impact. So there is, we, we’ve been talking about these things even in our accounting world for a number of years now. And there is an evolution again of that, of a different terminology around talking about impact in a greater sense rather than just a profit and an economic impact. Okay. So I think that there is an evolution.
Sarah:
How many businesses would you say that you come across really look at the triple bottom line for example?
Matt:
I on a proprietary limited, I mostly deal with small to medium size enterprise okay. So I’m not in a large enterprise space, so my experience is more at the business owner level typically. And I would say that the business owner level there is, I’m really pleased to report that the, the majority of businesses that I work with have a, an experience and a desire to look at the complete impact of their organizations. Now, desire and implementation sometimes can be two totally different things. And I see that the, that the people are trying to do the right thing within their limited capability and probably financial elements of it as well. I certainly think that, that they think about the team a lot. So about the people impact, about their social responsibility impact inside their organizations, I think that they’re thinking about it from a product perspective, but not beyond, they’re not probably thinking about environmental and, and beyond that really, they’re, they’re more probably in the main thinking about their own world and the people that are impacted upon their own world. That is probably my point, probably not beyond that, if that makes any sense in what I’m talking about. So I do see a movement, I do see an evolution. I do see the types of people that I work with now. We know that like attracts likes and so therefore I’m probably dealing with people that are similar in terms of the way that they think as I do. But I don’t look after, you know, the hundreds of thousands of businesses that operate in this country or around the world and the millions that operate around the world. So there is an evolution. That’s the first thing that I wanted to, to talk about. And it’s like saying, well what, how far does that actually go? And, and I also think it’s worth saying, well the natural conflict, and maybe this is where the accountant thing comes in, is accountancy and organizations are known for cost control. Okay? So when you’ve got an accountant in your, like a CFO or a finance director in your organization, typically everybody whinges about them okay? And why they’re whinging about them is because of the fact that they’re picking them up on, you know, their costs and, and what they’re spending money on. And, and so that’s their tradition. That’s kind of the traditional way of accounts being thought of in an organization. And so that’s probably, there’s a negative element to that because you know, you’re telling me that you’re picking me up on how much I can spend or you are limiting how much I can ex I expend or you, you’re trying to, to get me to say, well if I spend this money, this is how much money I’m going to make out of it. So everything is very money orientated and it’s very cost control orientated. And so I think that’s where the, if you are talking about, so holisticness, you’re talking about having to think about investment, okay? And you’re also, the other thing that I want to talk about now before I lose a thought is that I’ve spoken and I’ve dealt with a lot of businesses that are in the creative space and historically would’ve been in the space of say, graphic design or advertising or architecture. So something where there’s a very high level of creativity and design element involved in it. And the difficulty that I had when I was managing these businesses is very much around, you know, saying, well okay, you are losing money on these particular types of clients or on these particular types of jobs. So you’ve got to spend less time on doing the design of that because you’re spending too much of your time and you’re actually spending, your costs are too high compared to, you know, the revenue that’s coming through. So you’re making a loss. We need to think about a way in making a profit. And they said, yeah, yeah, but I’m not going to compromise on the outcome if it’s not beautiful if it doesn’t look good at the end of it, whether that’s a, a logo or whether it’s a building, I’m not going to actually put my name to it. I’m going, yeah, that’s great, but I’ve got to find a way to actually marry the creativity, the creativity with making money. Okay? So there’s another element to it. So there’s that creativity bit, there’s the cost control bit and it’s like, and they’re all, and this is where the conflict starts to rise in and that’s why accountants maybe seem to be linear. And then you’ve got the creativity and the wholeness that sits over here that needs investment for these things to actually work.
Sarah:
And that is such a beautiful example actually, I think because there are so many different ways you could look at it and I’m not sure that we would necessarily know even, which is correct because my mind goes to, I, my sense is, I don’t know if I can say I know this, that sometimes if I put too much effort into something that’s smaller, but I do it really well, it enables me to do something bigger later that perhaps would be profitable. But can we prove that? Probably not, probably never. So is it right to look at it in the way that this is costing too much and not making profit? Yes, clearly that’s correct in a way, is it right to look at it, but maybe I’m gaining some experience here that’s so valuable, it’s going to allow me to make profit in the future? Yes, that could be, right. Clearly if in the former case the business goes out of business, I don’t get the chance to do that beautiful thing in the future. So we have to watch out for that. But I think that that’s a perfect example where we don’t really know because there are so many things, a business has so many moving parts over, not only what’s happening at the moment, but what’s happening over time. And this is what makes me realize that it, when we have that sense of a business is a living kind of, it’s like, it’s almost like an organism. It’s, it’s a thing that’s alive and there are things happening that we don’t understand. And there are forces and energies at play all the time. There’s a comment that an employee makes somewhere that leads to something in a year’s time that you had no idea about. That’s happening all the time. And so what is it that we are playing with that we’re trying to pack into a structure that will fit into a set of accounts at the end? Or that, you know, you can say to me, oh, show me the profit and loss and the balance sheet and I can see what’s going on. What, like the thing that we are trying to pack is, is so rich and diverse and I understand we have to have rules and principles and laws and things like that and we say this is business and this is not business. And, but I think that shows why it’s such it’s an interesting topic and such a challenging topic actually.
Matt:
It is. And, going back to that other point about accountants are seen to be cost control, okay? That’s fundamental to what they’re there to do is to report on, you know, the revenue, the expenses and the profit of an organization or the loss of it depending on where they’re at. And so if their responsibility is around managing finances and about managing the money that comes in and goes out and having enough money to pay payroll the next month, for example, and therefore it’s all about cash control, really at the end of the day, then they’re going to be always thinking about, it’s like, you know, a surgeon will always think about a, you know, solving a problem with a knife, you know, an accountant’s always going to solve a problem with cash, and money really at the end of the day. And so we have to be really conscious of that. And that’s what you’re really starting to, that email maybe started to light you up in terms of thinking, well actually accountants have to think this particular way because they’re responsible for it. You know, because if the business goes, goes fast, then the, the, you know, the finger’s going to be pointed, you know, largely at obviously the, the CEO and the, the owners of the business. But really the account’s going to be right up there as somebody that’s, that is responsible for the, the future of the business.
Sarah:
What I can see is that a truly conscious business, the actual technically correct definition of the conscious business is not on one or other side of that polarity is actually a business that marries financial responsibility with creative responsibility or with, you know, productive whatever the, whatever the other part of it is that marries them to create something that is both profitable and responsible and creative. So it marries the wider responsibility, the bigger purpose with the money, with the creativity that is innate in any business. There’s always going to be some degree of creativity and maybe there are some other things. That’s what a truly conscious business is. It, it brings those all together, which means we all have to listen to each other and understand each other’s perspectives and find a way to solve the problems. So not limit the creativity and not, not destroy the finances, but make the finances work so that they actually increase the creativity. To me that’s consciousness. And I think the dichotomy exists where people are just not doing really good business because they’re not willing to think it out. So they say, the accountant says you can’t do that. The CEO goes off swearing at the accountant, I’m speaking of an example I can think of, the accountant is destroying, or is the CFO destroying the spirit of the business because all he’s doing is counting numbers and doesn’t see that this person actually contributes to the happiness of the clients and they shouldn’t be cut as, because they’re an unnecessary cost. They’re an essential to the experience that the business is delivering. The accountant is not seeing that, but both of them are not communicating with each other because the CEO’s gone storming off and doesn’t even want to listen to this guy who thinks is completely not, you know, and the, and the accountant is storming off in the other direction where the CEO never listens to me and he’s totally irresponsible. And so it is a lack of communication that creates this perception of the different paradigms. I think, you know, as we open up to a more purpose driven economy that’s not, it’s just, it’s kind of driven in a different way. We are not going to be able to abandon the financial aspect of it. We need to use it even better and more wisely than we have before.
Matt:
What you spoke about then reminds me of the, the large differences between a larger business and a small business. A larger business has typically what we call a C-suite. You know, you have your chief financial officer, you know, chief HR, chief sales and marketing. You have all these chiefs that sit underneath the, the, the chief executive officer of the chief. And so the, the, the point there is that you have these heads of responsibility. So you have the, the account that’s going to talk about numbers and refinance responsibility. You’ve got the, the HR, you know, head of HR is going to be talking about people and culture and making sure that, you know, there, there’s a social responsibility around that. You have sales and marketing that’s going to be responsible for, you know, obviously the aspect of selling, okay, the products and services or marketing from that point of view. And it goes on and on. And then, you know what we’re, if we’re talking about a holistic business, you gotta make sure you’re adding the extra bits to those because they’re, they’re just as important. All the things we spoke about, you got to have the numbers and you got to have the people and you got to have the products. And, so in a small business, the business owners typically wearing a lot of those hats, okay? And then employing people to support them in that. But they’re largely, you know, having these conversations, but a lot of the time they’re having the conversations in their own head rather than with other people. So they, and this is the thing about why I called myself a business owner before is because yes, I do have a C-suite by the way, but I still have all these conversations in my head and a lot of them are in conflict, some conflict is probably the wrong word, but it’s, they’re, they’re, they’re constantly talking to each other about saying, okay, we have this thing happening over here on the numbers. We need to make money and profit. We’ve got, we’ve got to be, you know, we’ve got to make sure that our, our products are responsible and ethical and all those sorts of things. And then, then our people and the culture has to be the best. So you’re constantly trying to juggle all of that to have a sustainable business. And I think that the business owners that I know are typically trying to do most of that and having people support them to do that and expertise to do that. But, it’s hard. It’s really, really, really hard, not only at small business level, but also at the large business. But you can see the structures and the conversations are very similar.
Sarah:
Yes, it’s actually very hard when you see that those roles are quite different to have all the conversations in your, in your own head. That’s very hard isn’t it, to try to represent those different roles, and each person is probably going to favor one over another. And we see in very large business that very often money wins out over everything else. And profit can be at a great deal of cost not cost, as in the accountant is thinking about, the accountant might be happy because the business is very profitable, but the cost is beyond the, the kind of frame of the business itself. It’s a cost of the environment and communities and we hear a lot about that. So we don’t need to talk about that here. But I think to for us to be able to look at, for example, if, if one has more of a financial brain to look at the people, not just as a cost that the way of looking at people is different from the way that you look at the numbers and the way you look at sales and marketing. So let’s say marketing on its own is especially about communication is different from how you look at people or how you look at numbers. And so we need to have these different forms, different kind of capabilities and that it’s a constellation of skills that it takes. And it’s not just skills, it’s it’s mindsets. It’s, it’s a way of thinking about things. It’s no wonder we, I used the word holistic because you need to have an incredible agility and flexibility to think about all of those things.
Matt:
And it goes back to what you were saying before about what your preference is. So I see businesses, especially in that C-suite where the CEO might have come up through the ranks of being the CFO, being the accountant, right? Some come up through the ranks of being the sales and marketing and the other one might be the product technical person that comes through the ranks as well or HR, but they typically will come up through the ranks based on their own vertical Okay. Or their own discipline. And so therefore organizations then take on that personality typically because of where they’ve come from. Now, as much as I’m an accountant, I would say that I’m a people led CEO as opposed to a, an accountant or numbers led CEO. So I think about people probably more than I do most other things. And so then I will always be thinking about people first and then money and profit and all that sort of stuff second. Okay. Whereas other people might be thinking profit and money first, people second. Okay, now somebody else might come along and go, I’m thinking about social environmental impact first. Okay. Which is kind of in this probably new paradigm that you’re talking about in terms of the conscious business, the holistic part of it, about the impact that the organizations are having. And so therefore the culture of that business will be completely different to the other two. And I think that that’s really important to, to make the distinction of and the note of, because I see this every day that, what are you led as in terms of, I would say I’m a people led CEO where I think about people first and not just people our own in team people, I’m thinking about the client experience. So I’m always thinking about how are we helping people, how are we supporting business owners? How are we helping them achieve their goals and aspirations, which is our purpose of our organization. How do I allow my team to create a space for them where they grow and develop professionally and achieve their goals and aspirations? So that’s, for me, that’s the actual that I’m not necessarily thinking at probably at a high level that you are talking about, which is that, that impact upon environmental or social, I’m still thinking about my own world in terms of that.
Sarah:
So I actually think that that wider impact, everyone should be thinking about that. And through their own lens. I don’t think that you could have an organization that is only led by that. I suspect that everyone needs to come through one of those lens. Like if I, if I am ever in a position of being CEO with a C-suite I would definitely be on the product development side, you know, what I think about all the time and I think about in terms of making a better experience for people and I think about it in terms of the difference it’s going to make to the world, but definitely my lens is always through the, the creating of the, of the product. So when I listen to you and I’m thinking, well, if I’m creating products, I must think about the impact that product has beyond just the clients who sign up for courses. But if I’m doing the numbers, I have to think about the impact of the decisions we make beyond just the profit that we make and the, and the costs that we have to balance. And if I’m, if it’s about the people, I have to think about the health and wellbeing of the people beyond, will their backs last long enough for them to sit in the chairs all day long so that they can sit at their computers. I heard an example the other day of somebody who worked for a very, very large company who wanted discovered her, her team, many of them had back problems and wanted to get some kind of the right chairs for them and was told by the executive team that she couldn’t and she said, well, you can take it out of the bonuses if it doesn’t work, out of our bonuses if it doesn’t work because I’m gonna do it anyway. And she did it and of course saved a lot of sick leave and all the things that we know happens. But health and wellbeing is not just about making sure people can do that thing you need them to be able to do it has to be, has to be about the wider health and wellbeing. Not that we are responsible for people’s health and wellbeing, they are, but perhaps to create an environment where they can actually take responsibility for it rather than kind of be forced into situations that are very uncomfortable. So I think the purpose part belongs in every sector of the business because it’s an expression, and it belongs in every, you know, member of a family. You can’t say, well mum will take on that bit and everyone else, everyone else can trash the place and mum’s going to clean up all the time. Which is actually what happens in many families, I think. But that’s not breeding kind of social and environmental responsibility, it’s breeding what we’re trying to move away from now.
Matt:
Yeah, it is. And I think about it saying, I, as we said before, my experience is a lot of people trying to the, to the level of their capability and the best of their capability as it stands today with the resources that they have some, you know, aren’t thinking about it at all. There’s some that are in the category, they’re thinking about it probably, don’t how to do it, or don’t have the resources or the capability. And there’s some that are actually great experiences where they are doing it, they’ve got the thought and they are doing it. So there’s probably the three categories, like there is in most things. And I do see conscious business owners daily trying to get better at this stuff. But you know, there’s, there’s still a lot to do and that’s probably what you’re talking about. We, we’re sort of, and there’s so much so many views like, you know, when you spoke about the woman before with just the backs and you said the executive team, you’re probably currently saying the accountants are saying they couldn’t actually.
Sarah:
Probably, we’re not going to, that’s an expense, an unnecessary expense, you know?
Matt:
That’s right. And, and that’s conflict because if I’m a people led, in that situation, if I’m a people led CEO, I probably would’ve done the same thing. So just take it out of, you know, I don’t care, take it out of my bonus, take it out, whatever it actually is. Just because I care about the people that are in the organization and I know that if they’re feeling good about the world, then typically our clients are having better experiences and they’re having better experiences in themselves. So there is just so much to think about constantly and so much conflict. And if you don’t have the resources, as we said before as a business, like this is all going on in your own head and you’ve only got so much capacity to actually implement that from a, from a responsibility perspective.
Sarah:
I think perhaps that the thing that is dawning on me as being particularly important and it’s one of those things that occurs to me time and time and time again or I recognize more and more deeply is that if you look at it from a purely business perspective, it’s, it takes a lot of resources. But if you look at it first and foremost from a human and personal perspective, it does also take time to treat people well. But why would you ever not want to treat people well? For example, it takes time to listen to your accountant and actually get your accounts to work rather than be blind to what they’re saying and not listen and then maybe go out of business, which is a very painful consequence. So it takes time, but that is time that we need to take. And there’s an expression I’ve heard recently somebody talks about slowing down to the speed of consciousness and I started to understand what he means. It’s like actually doing things at a speed where you can create this kind of holistic result where you can actually take account of all the things that need to be taken account of. You are not rushing so fast that you don’t have time or energy for the things that are actually important. And I think if we do that in our family life and also in our business life, we start with ourselves, we start to create an environment where that’s the norm, that we take care of each other, that we think about the wider impact of what we’re doing simply because it’s the right thing to do. And because human beings are naturally geared to do that and we are forgetting who we are when we get into that hurry and we don’t do it and you know, and we mess up in the way that we do. So this is about becoming more human, more alive, more relaxed in a way, slowing down a bit those things that are in a hurry. And also speeding up the things where there’s so much procrastination. I mean things move so slowly in business almost to match the ridiculous speed that people are trying to move at. So I think if we could come back to ourselves, be more present, we’ve talked many times in the podcast about being present, then we start to be able to do these things in a simple way, which is just starting with me and you being a human being, listening to ourselves and to each other, doing the things that are naturally good human beings do.
Matt:
And being open to other people’s thoughts and wishes and concerns and, trying to marry all the things together. And that’s, and if you’ve got a team of people that are open rather than closed in their thinking, that makes life so much more easier to navigate through this difficulty of marrying it all together.
Sarah:
And we need to learn how to communicate with and enroll and engage people whose who are more closed because they are part, a large part of the population. And I think, you know what? That they speak to the closed parts of ourselves. So I think that when we do this well, we will automatically, everyone will become more open because we’ll actually have to open ourselves up as much as anything. So to me, there’s a very beautiful vision of business arising out of this conversation actually, which is a business that is way more responsible, I don’t want to say accountable, it is accountable as well, but responsible is bigger than accountable, is responsible in a way that’s beautiful. It’s actually responsible for creating beautiful outcomes in the world for many people. Because that’s what businesses have the capacity to do.
Matt:
Well, I think that that’s a great way to end this particular podcast and, and address the question the, which was, you know, really what you were saying at the start of the podcast was around saying, well, I come from a background of thinking a certain way. And that way if you only think that particular way, then you’re going to miss all these other things that you should be responsible for in relation to running a responsible, as you say organization. And so therefore it’s, it’s, it’s opened that up to a, a bigger world, even beyond, you know, where we’re currently at the moment. So there’s something bigger to, to really achieve.
Sarah:
Yeah. Really bigger and, and more beautiful and actually really worth moving towards because it makes, it makes life better.
Matt:
So thanks again for the chat, Sarah. It’s been great.
Sarah:
Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrumb. We’ll be back next week with another episode. You’ll find the show notes with links and other useful information on our website, spirit of business.live. And if you enjoyed this podcast, please share it with your friends.
