When you start asking deeper questions about yourself and your life, it has an immediate effect on the way you do business and how you think about yourself. This week we ask the questions:
Who are you? Where are you? Why are you here? What are you doing about it? What do you want? The exploration is surprising and enlightening.
Sarah:
Welcome to the Spirit of Business, episode number 76, A Simple Bloke in Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrum.
Matt:
Hi Sarah.
Sarah:
Hi Matt.
Matt:
Last podcast we spoke about asking deeper questions because that can help us sort of, you know, determine the pathway forward that feels right and feels good. And you know, that was a, we challenged ourselves last time to ask those deeper questions and I’m glad to say that we had a conversation the following day where you said, I’ve actually asked the questions of myself and I’ve also answered those questions, I’ve said, awesome. I said, what are the questions that you actually asked to then ponder to answer? Because I’d reckon it’d be great to go through those today because when you told me the questions that you asked, I thought they were great questions and I’m really intrigued because we haven’t had the conversation yet about what the answers are for you. And I’ve been asking myself similar questions or the same questions I should say since then. And I’m struggling a little bit, I’ve got to say with answering those. So it’d be good to explore some of that today as well.
Sarah:
Well, I’m going to reel back a little bit just to add a little bit to the context that you already gave because some people might not have heard last week’s podcast yet. And it’s probably worth going to listen to it if you get interested in what we’re talking about today because I hit one of those moments where it just felt like there’s something, there’s something that needs to be more, there’s something that needs to be different. And that puts me, it put me into a frame and we had a really beautiful exploration of what would be a better, bigger or a deeper question to ask. And through the whole podcast we didn’t come up with a question. We just explored the need for better questions. And I had actually a really remarkable experience because I literally jumped from one Zoom call to the other. So from the podcast to a group that I’m working with in my Leading Edge program. And I came out of it and I said, oh, I’m just coming out of recording this podcast. And we’ve been talking all about, well, you know what would be a deeper question? And one of my clients looked at me and she said, well, my teacher always used to say, what do you want? That was his first question. And she trained for many years, she was an apprentice to one of the great Indian healers, Ayurvedic healers. And it reminded me and I said, oh, that’s interesting. My Chinese master, who was also a great healer, she always used to say to people, what do you want? And then I remembered reading Conversations with God by Neil Donald Walsh. And in there there are four questions and they’re such good questions. I think the first, and these were questions that it, you know, it was God talking as it happens saying these are questions you could ask every day. These are perennial questions and the first one is, who am I? And the second one is, where am I? And the third one is, why am I here? And the fourth one is, what am I doing about it? So what we decided to do as a group was to ask those questions, putting those four questions first, and then following them by what do I want at the end? And it was the most beautiful experience. There were maybe five or six of us in the group and everyone came out of it like glowing really radiant with this experience of asking very simple but profound questions. And the thing that was interesting for me, because this relates to why I was looking for a question in the first place, is that we all came out of it realising that we would have to do some things differently. Because we had asked and answered the questions. Yeah, it was that was it.
Matt:
Which is, I mean they’re very simple questions as you say, but they’re ones that are very thought provoking, you know, because it really is covering off on the, you know, the who, where, why, and what of life. And usually the other one’s how, which is, which is the last point that you’ve made there, is once you’ve actually come up with something, then you know, what are you going to do about it? How are you going to go about change, so to speak? Because once you’ve answered those, then there’s obviously a follow on from that. So, you know, when I’ve gone through this process, you know, since you challenged me on those particular questions, I do get stuck on the first one I must admit, which is the who am I? And I kind of get to this stage where it’s, it’s a very simple, it becomes a very simple view of myself and happy to explore that. But before I do, I’d really like you to answer to me what were the things that came to you in answering those questions. So who are you, Sarah?
Sarah:
Well, I got a kind of image in response to that question, and it’s an image that’s been growing in me over several weeks, I would say. And it was kind of new when it started a few weeks ago. And, it’s more of a kind of spiritual answer in a way. But I got this sense of myself being like the front edge or a projection into a particular reality, which is this kind of 3d, this space-time reality that we live in. But it felt like that was just a projection of something, that behind me I was connected all the way into life, let’s say. That’s kind of, it was just like projected into this massive, very difficult to describe, aliveness energy, whatever you want to call it. But the bit of me that I call me is, is like a little kind of casing around that shows up in a human form on Earth, rather than anything else. So I had this sense of myself being a very specific person. It’s almost like, you know, wearing jeans and a cardigan type of thing, just like I am in this place. But joined onto everything else and it was like I was projected out of everything else into this reality that was, it wasn’t just like this reality is enfolded in, it was kind of like a projection out into a certain place, but everything sits kind of behind me. And this is really interesting, difficult to describe, but a very clear picture of who I am.
Matt:
That’s really cool. I sort of felt that, you know, when I was trying to answer that question, I keep coming back to this simplicity thing and I heard a bit of simplicity in what you sort of said then too. It is kind of simplicity that creates some clarity and this is not sort of fully formed, but some of the things that I came up with, that I’m a simple bloke, and that’s probably an Australianism just to, to say that sort of, you know, simple bloke sort of type principle. But really, you know, I’ve learned things over my life and my years and what I like to do is teach others about what I’ve learned so they have a better life, which actually makes me feel good about myself and therefore my life as well. And I kind of feel that that sort of permeates through my life, whether it’s teaching my children, it’s you know, teaching my, you know, business clients, it’s teaching my team. It’s being part. So I kind of feel like really at the heart of it, I feel that I’m a teacher, an educator of sorts. And so who am I, I kind of feel that’s the essence of me as a thing. As one of the things, one of the things that I feel now, I obviously I find going through these things better if I’m discussing and prompted rather than just being in my own head. And that’s something that if I was going to go further with this, it’s a conversation that I’d have with you around saying, okay, push me on what else that actually means. So that’s what I came up with answering.
Sarah:
Now you’re tempting me. You know that, don’t you? I’m sitting here thinking, how do I formulate my next sentence? What I want to say is, if I was coaching you, Matt. Or something like that, but you know what, to me, what I hear and what you say is actually the first thing you said is the key to all of it. The rest to me is probably more of what you do. That actually what you really said is, I’m a simple bloke. Like that’s beautiful, isn’t it?
Matt:
But what does that mean? A simple bloke
Sarah:
Who said it needs to mean something? But you know, to me that’s really beautiful. There’s no head in that. That’s just like, well, so one of my clients, I did this with, as I said with several people. So I, and then I did it with another group the next day and we had an equally beautiful experience. And so one person said with that question, I’m me, I’m me, I’m me, I’m kind of, I’m part of all of it and I’m just me. And that’s enough to me. That’s actually where the beauty comes in. The minute we start to put labels on, we’re beginning to bring the head into it and the head doesn’t really know who you are.
Matt:
So therefore, you know, being, you’re a person that’s part of a world really. Because you sort of said that, you sort of said a similar thing, that you are projecting yourself onto the wall, onto the world. You have an image of yourself that’s projecting. So you’re an individual as part of a part of a community.
Sarah:
Yeah. And the thing is that there’s no right answer to this. And if I ask the question again today, I’m going to get a different answer. They’re all related. And that’s the beauty of it. It’s always fresh. That’s why there’s such great questions because they always take you out of the, what am I doing? What am I supposed to be doing? What have I got to do next? And all of that, the stuff that makes life humdrum and sometimes means we repeat stuff that we don’t need to repeat. It just lifts you out of that instantly. And to be a simple bloke to me, if I see you as that walking into your office for example, or operating with your team, I see somebody who’s really powerful when you are that. The minute you start putting all the clothes on of the this and the that and what I do and how I do it and all of that, you lose power to me.
Matt:
It’s interesting because I, when I, and every time I’ve been asking myself that question, the same words keep coming up, which is simple bloke.
Sarah:
Yeah, well I’m pulling this out of you, because I want to share it like, this is an opportunity and a way to show how this works. Most people, if they get a simple answer, will tend to second guess it. And the biggest thing I’ve learned with this is don’t second guess. Like what comes is what comes, you might feel it, you probably got it more as words. Some people feel it or they sense it in themselves, which is how I experienced it. But it’s very simple stuff that’s powerful.
Matt:
And because of that I felt like it wasn’t the answer as you say, or I felt like it was too simplistic or even felt like it’s in some regards degrading myself or sort of bringing myself back into, you know in a word of, I can’t think of exactly the right word that I’m trying to find, but it’s, it’s sort of saying that you’re kind of not much at the end of the day by just calling yourself a simple bloke. There’s got to be more.
Sarah:
So how does it feel? How does it actually feel if you imagine yourself just going to work as a simple bloke or sitting down with your family as a simple bloke or doing any of the things you do, sitting down with a really important, very expensive client or something as a simple bloke, how does it feel to you?
Matt:
It feels calm. And it also feels like there’s a lot less pressure.
Sarah:
There’s freedom in it.
Matt:
It is. Yeah.
Sarah:
That’s what you look for all the time, isn’t it? Calm and freedom.
Matt:
It is. Exactly right.
Sarah:
Yeah. So it’s all the clothes we put on ourselves to make us look like somebody that causes all the pressure and the, and the anxiety and the worry and all those other things. If we can allow ourselves just to be that little bit of who I am, then everything gets easier.
Matt:
And you become true to yourself in that regard too, because you’re true to label about the fact that really at the end of the day, you’re just a simple bloke and navigating through the complexity of life as it stands. And it makes it a lot easier when you sort of stay true to that particular concept.
Sarah:
Well also then it frees you from the idea that life should be treating you like this because you are a what, because you’re a business owner. Because you’re the owner of a certain size business because you have a family or because you have this history that creates expectations. That life is going to treat me a certain way. And then when it doesn’t, it’s really easy to be disappointed. But if you’re a simple bloke, there’s no expectation with it, it’s life is what it is.
Matt:
And therefore you take the pressure off yourself as well because it’s part of the image that you project. And that’s an ego thing. It’s more about, I suppose, the position that you hold in society as either, you know, personally as a, as a father, as a husband, as a, as a business leader. There’s all this sort of complexity that goes on when you hold a position of leadership. And therefore that’s where the pressure can also come from. Because there’s people that have a, you feel like there’s people that have a reliance upon you and therefore that adds more weight and more pressure. Which means that you can’t sort of feel that you’re a simple bloke because that would pull the whole thing apart.
Sarah:
So let’s stress test that a little bit because that’s so interesting what you’re talking about. Supposing with all those people who are relying on you to some extent, you allow yourself to be a simple bloke. What happens then? Can you actually feel the difference now?
Matt:
Yeah, the difference is that it doesn’t take away from the capability of what you’re doing, it just changes the expectation around it.
Sarah:
Yeah. In fact, it frees up your capability, I would say. It allows you to just get on and do it.
Matt:
Because it’s what you put on yourself, yes certainly other people have expectations and reliance upon me, but it’s probably, it’s more of the expectation, the reliance you put on yourself in the positions that you hold as you become more senior in your years. And typically that means that you’re taking on more responsibility in life.
Sarah:
So it’s interesting because if you think that all those other people really are simple blokes or whatever the equivalent of a bloke is for a non-bloke, I can’t translate it into female, but
Matt:
In Australia in the old days would’ve been called a Sheila. But, you know.
Sarah:
Don’t think that that’s okay.
Matt:
That’s so politically incorrect nowadays.
Sarah:
Yeah. But whatever it is that I’m a simple version of that if you think that all those people really are that as well if you strip them also of all their fancy clothes and labels and identities and things. How, how liberating, that’s what to me is the beauty of this. It’s so liberating.
Matt:
Yeah. I can feel it, I can feel the freedom that fits with it that says that we’re just, and people, you know, talk about the fact that everybody puts their pants on one leg at a time or you know, from that point of view that everybody’s the same, you know, from, from that principle and, and everybody is the same. Yet we don’t treat ourselves with that same kind regard. I don’t think
Sarah:
That’s right. So look, we’ve only asked one question and just from that, it gives you an opportunity to operate completely differently without changing anything at work and at home in your social life, in your civic duties, whatever it is that you have. If you can allow yourself to be that simple bloke and let everyone else be simple blokes and simple blokesses, there’s such a gift.
Matt:
Yeah, there is. Because it calms things down significantly. And I think that’s where, you know, as we discussed before, is that business owners are getting to this stage of fatigue a lot, especially at the moment with everything that we’re going through. And fatigue comes from the pressure and the pressure that’s applied from other people, but also to yourself. If you can release that through these particular concepts, that actually helps with the sustainability of a business. Because you don’t sort of get to the point where you go, I’ve got to sell, I’ve got to get out, I’ve got to move on because I can’t, can’t, I don’t want to do it anymore.
Sarah:
You’ve become a group of simple people trying to work it out together, trying to solve a problem together
Matt:
And it drops ego away, which is something that I’m, you know, very conscious of. I don’t like ego in business. I don’t like ego really in any part. But there’s still an element of ego in everything that goes on with our, our mind so to speak. But it’s about good and bad ego, I suppose, at the end of the day too. But if we move on from the first question then, and we go to the second one, which is, where am I? So I’m going to ask you where you are right now. When you answered that question.
Sarah:
Well, I’m going to go back to the answer I had that came to me when we did it. It might be a bit different today. So I got this again it was something between a feeling and an image. That’s how I experienced things that day. And it was, I got this sense of being like, I’m in a space coordinate. You could give a coordinate in space, in universe space more than earth space, I would say, and I’m in a time coordinate, but it was like those two coordinates were hanging in space. So because they’re kind of just suspended in space, they’re almost meaningless because although a coordinate appears to identify you in a place, actually it’s, if it’s in an unlimited space, it doesn’t really identify you anywhere. So it was like, I’m, I’m living in this appearance of time and space, which we clearly do. But that, that’s actually part it, it’s very similar. It’s a, it’s like a similar take to what I got with the first answer, but that’s part of this limitless thing at the same time. And therefore I’m just, I’m experiencing time and space and probably some other things in something that’s much bigger than that. That’s, that’s where I felt that I am. And I can literally, as I speak about it, I can see and sense it still, these two coordinates kind of like hanging in space.
Matt:
It doesn’t feel very grounded or solid. I’ve got to say when you were trying to explain that. So, so when I think about where I am, I think about a position or a moment in time or a place. So that’s what I think. So I’m just trying to get my head around exactly what you, what that image that you’re talking about or that feeling that you’re talking about is because I, I feel that that, what does that actually mean for you?
Sarah:
What does that mean? It means that I’m here now. That’s it.
Matt:
And I always, and we always are taught around being present. So, and being present is the best place you could possibly be because the here and the out now is the, the thing that you can obviously feel sense and in some regards control in control, not in the, in the negative sense, but just in the, the of your, what you, what you’re actually doing as an individual.
Sarah:
And so I could say I’m sitting in this room on my farm at 4:06 PM on Tuesday the 17th of August. But what, in a way, what it was showing me is those are very, very tiny things, they don’t mean very much in terms of where I am. Where I am really is I’m kind of in, again, like in life. I’m in this big thing.
Matt:
So I answered the question just on the spot a minute ago.
Sarah:
I knew you’d be able to do it if I was here.
Matt:
I’m not that simple bloke. It’s probably the point that I am at the core, but I’ve complicated everything, all aspects of my life to indicate that, that the simple bloke is there inside, but it’s probably not necessarily able to get out. Okay. So, there’s a complication that goes on around me that, that that holds this, it’s a foundation piece and it’s probably who I am, but it’s actually all these other things that go along outside of that that causes that not to be present.
Sarah:
How amazing. Like what an amazing image, do you realize? Like, do you realize what you’ve just said there?
Matt:
Yeah. That’s quite interesting.
Sarah:
It’s interesting. It’s profound. It sums up a huge kind of truth about you. And it also gives you the answer to the question in a way. It, it gives you the answer to the next question.
Matt:
Which is why, why am I here?
Sarah:
I don’t mean that next question, but there’s a question that comes from that. If I’m a simple bloke who’s kind of trapped in a layer of complication the obvious question is, how do I free the simple bloke? And it’s, it becomes really clear what the answer is, doesn’t it?
Matt:
It becomes clearer. I think that it’s, the execution of it or the implementation of it can not be as easy as maybe what is the first statement with that? Now I haven’t explored that yet, but I’m about to because as soon as you ask me a question, I’m going to probably formulate the answer.
Sarah:
So I want to share something that is so this is, this is almost, it’s not, this is not a secret, but it’s almost like one of the secrets of life that we rarely get taught, but it’s so present as we do this. You can, you can never unsee what you just saw. And in the moment that you saw that the complication started to dissolve, it started to change immediately. That’s how it works. And I can feel it because that’s what I trained to do, so to speak. It’s literally like, you don’t need, the more you try to implement now, the more complication you’ll build because your implementation is just complication.
Matt:
And the interesting part about it, what I did feel, which is probably different to what I might have felt as a solution in the past as a thing, is that you eradicate your complication in your life. Which means that you, as I’ve said before, business owners will say, if, if business is causing me not to be the simple bloke because of the fact is that there’s so much pressure and stress on me to therefore I’ll sell, I’ll do whatever I want to do with it. And I’ve always said, that’s not the answer. You’ve got to still look within to actually say, you know, because it’s about circumstance. What I felt very clear about then, it’s actually not changing any of my circumstances. It’s not like changing, you know, the fact that, you know, I’ve got three children and a wife and a business and a, you know, all these other things are going on in my life. I wasn’t even thinking about changing any of the aspects of my life. So it wasn’t about that. It was just freeing the simple bloke inside of me. So therefore I got operated each and every one of those elements of what I’ve taken on as responsibility. Because that’s what I want, you know, is in life. But the freedom comes from a complete change of understanding who I am and what I want to do and freeing that individual. And I’m not being that articulate at the moment.
Sarah:
But, but it’s, so to me, honestly, these moments is, there’s such a powerful energy, there’s such a powerful kind of vibe just in listening to you. And these moments are precious, precious moments because really what you’re saying is you need to be the simple bloke and you actually already know.
Matt:
But not change, not change the landscape, not change environment. It’s just change.
Sarah:
Because you already, we already looked at that and you said, well, if I was the simple bloke in business or with my team or whatever, it would be calm and everything would be much easier. So it’s, it’s like you actually know, you already know how to do it. We all know this. We just tend to put all those clothes on every morning of this identity and that identity. So these questions go so much to the core of who we are. But the reason I’m wanting to kind of spell it out a bit is because people so often dismiss the answers that they get, like you did, they don’t see the gold in what they’re sharing. And then it’s like, can you see just how, how beautiful it is, what you’re talking about? And every one of us can do this.
Matt:
Agree. Okay.
Sarah:
Okay, so the next question is.
Matt:
The next question is, why am I here?
Sarah:
Why am I here? So I know you’re going to ask me to go first.
Matt:
Because I’ve got to formulate my answer.
Sarah:
I know. So what I experienced in that moment was just pure and simple, the word joy. And that’s it. I tried as I was kind of, I’ve tried poking around to see if there was something else. It’s like, can you give me some elaboration? Please can you, can give me a bit more than that? That was it. That was the only thing.
Matt:
So as soon as you said that, what came to my mind was joy for yourself or joy for others or joy for the world? Like what is the, what is the word joy actually mean, in what use is the word joy?
Sarah:
For me, joy is an inner state which is different from happiness or excitement or exhilaration or any of those things. It’s a very calm, kind of rather neutral and very beautiful state. It’s like a spring bubbling up in my lower belly or something like that. Just like this bubbling of more of a smile than a laugh. It’s a feeling of inner well-being that ripples out from me. So it’s not for me or for others. It, joy is joy. Joy is something as in experiencing it. I am sharing it, I’m being, it, I’m creating space around me for other people to experience it. It’s all the same thing. And what I recognized, no, I think this bit comes to the next question, so I won’t go any further yet.
Matt:
So the question I, well it’s not a question is, is it fair to say that joy is an outcome?
Sarah:
No, joy is not an outcome.
Matt:
Because what I was thinking to answer that particular question and why I sort of leapt to that as being a label for one of a better word, is that why am I here? I went back to what I said for who I am. Which was, you labeled as more of a head statement than a than not when I said that effectively I like to educate, I like to teach. And if I think who I am as a simple bloke and I know that so many people would get the benefit of being a simple bloke at the end of the day from what we just explored, then why am I here? Is it, is it to teach others the joy of that? Because that’s where I come to Joy. Because I thought joy was an outcome to a process. And education is a process to get to a benefit. To get to an outcome. And is joy part of that whole process? You know, you know the way my brain works, I’m working.
Sarah:
You know exactly what you’re trying to, you started off with this beautiful non-heady thing about when you said it before about I’m an educator, it was rather heady, but now you said, but I’m a simple bloke and I can see that there are a lot of other people around who would benefit enormously from being able to kind of find their simple bloke. And the word that I wanted to, to just suggest, and it might not be right, is more than educate is it’s either educate in the original meaning, you know, to draw out of people, but also there’s something about sharing that simple bloke so other people can be simple, that you can give them permission, you can that seemed very important part of your education is, is a kind of sharing of that experience.
Matt:
So why am I here is to share the experience.
Sarah:
Of who you are.
Matt:
As a simple bloke.
Sarah:
Yeah. Now we’ve got well out of head territory, haven’t we? And can you see how amazing that would be in a business context? You can have the same meetings, you can run the same courses, you can sit on the same boards, you can do everything and father, wife, husband, all those things. But how different.
Matt:
Sorry, that’s my dog in the background. Just hold a second.
Sarah:
Oh, Billy’s agreeing with me. He’s saying yes, yes, yes. Simple bloke. We like simple bloke. Billy is now just being let out of the room and no doubt in a moment he’ll want to come back in again. Yeah, so do you see, each question unfolds from the previous one and if you follow the thread, the very light thread, rather than starting to think about it, you come to the beautiful truths about you. And everyone will have a different language. No one else will say the word simple bloke, but it’ll be something else for them.
Matt:
Yeah, it’s interesting. It does. There’s a, there’s a real sense of freedom as you say. And then I like the word joy too, because I think joy is bigger than what you said. It’s bigger than happiness, it’s bigger than, you know, the elements of joy. I think. Whereas joy is kind of this, it’s a bigger, a sense of being bigger in terms of feeling or emotion.
Sarah:
Yes, because it doesn’t, joy is not about something. Joy is an inner state. It’s simply, it’s an experience. It doesn’t require anything to be in a particular place or time or anything else in order for it to exist. It’s something that just exists in its own right. And to me, I, it’s something that’s in us. It’s, it’s freely available, tends to be rather well packaged up out of the way, extremely well hidden. And then we kind of try to get happy or try to get excited or try to get, you know, that yay, that sort of overstimulation, which is a very poor substitute in my experience for joy.
Matt:
Yeah. I’ve never really experienced that as been something that, that’s felt great when you sort of get that hyper sens hyper sort of emotion when it comes to that. So the next question is, what are you doing about it, Sarah?
Sarah:
This was interesting. Because I recognized that the work that I do actually tied back in with my work, which surprised me a little bit. Because everything else was quite sort of spiritual and, and intangible. The work that I do around money is fundamentally about joy because that’s actually been my experience. Whenever I have this, whenever I feel like I’m really in my space around money and when I’m teaching people about it, joy is what emerges from that. From when, when you release all the conflict and worry and stress and misunderstandings about money and you come in touch with money as this beautiful energy that connects us together and enables us to contribute to each other and, and flows all around the world constantly. Once you start to have that experience, joy is so natural. It’s the partner. It seems so funny because in a way we look for money to give us joy, but it very rarely does. And yet at the same time it seems like it can. So it came to me that what I’m doing is the right thing to be doing.
Matt:
So doing is an adjective, as a, you’re doing something right.
Sarah:
It’s a verb.
Matt:
Sorry, verb, I wasn’t that great at English.
Sarah:
I’d better be teacherish about this. Otherwise somebody will pick us up for sure.
Matt:
Thanks Sarah, I appreciate you picking me up on that. So it, so is the doing bit for you, the teaching part?
Sarah:
The teaching is the front end of it. What it really is is that joy. So the other piece, thank you for asking me again because I forgot a really important piece. What I saw is that if I saw that my business is fundamentally about joy, all the other things that I fret about would be instantly diminished because that joy would create the foundation that enables all the questions to be answered and all the solutions to come up. And that I get into my head, like we both do. And I start to make it complicated and think about things and try to figure them out in ways that are more than is needed. And that if I put more, more of my attention into that underlying foundation, that the business in my life, not just my business, my home life, my farm life, whatever is actually about joy at its core, that would yeah, it would solve the, the frettiness that I get sometimes like, oh, I need to do something more. It’s not enough, or I’m not, there’s something that’s not enough it, that wouldn’t be there anymore.
Matt:
So when I was reflecting about what am I doing about it, where I went straight to was that not enough and I need to be doing more and really releasing the simple bloke is the, and going about my day and my life in a different way is really to, to free and release the simple bloke in every aspect of my life, which therefore creates the joy that will come from the experiences that I have.
Sarah:
Yeah. And being the simple bloke is a joyful experience. So this is really interesting. I just, I can’t help commenting on this because it’s such a fascinating thing. You know, for you the answer appears to be not enough. You’re not doing enough about it because it, it’s inviting you to be more of that simple bloke. So there’s no criticism in the not enough whatsoever. And some people might take that as like, oh my goodness, I’m doing something wrong. It’s not, it’s just, there’s a whole lot more you can do of something beautiful, which is being the simple bloke. And for me it’s almost like my answer was the solution to the not enough. It’s almost the opposite way around, joy means that I don’t any more experience that not enough feeling. So it’s almost like we’re coming from opposite ends, but to the same place. And any answer you get to that question, it might come from any different angle, but it, if you can look at it with simple eyes, it will take you to this place of, in some way being you one person we, I asked this question to the answer that they got is something along the lines of you’re doing exactly the right thing.
Matt:
And, and there’s comfort in that too, because we always feel like we’re doing the wrong thing.
Sarah:
But there’s comfort in your not enough isn’t there? Because it’s not a, you are not good enough, not enough. Is it? Is it?
Matt:
No, it wasn’t, there wasn’t any pressure in that statement. There wasn’t, there wasn’t any sort of negative connotations to say, oh, I’m not doing enough. I should do more. There wasn’t any guilt in the words that I was using then it was purely just, I want to do more to, to experience a better way of going about things.
Sarah:
Because usually when I get a little bit edgy or you know, feeling like that not enough or something, I start to think, well, do I need to be more disciplined? Do I need to do more relaxation? Do I need to do more exercise? It’s always like, do I need to do something? And I know that if I put on too much discipline, I need more freedom because too much discipline is too much. It gets out of balance. I know that if I let go too much, I need more discipline. So I know that none of those is the answer, but I can go round and round in my head. Joy breaks through all of that. The simple bloke breaks through all of that instantly.
Matt:
Yeah, it does. You can really see the power of it. As you said, you said you saw the power in it. I, I’m now seeing more power in what you saw early on in this conversation when I said I’m just a simple bloke.
Sarah:
And can you feel, like to me these conversations, I just feel like I’m smiling all the time. It makes me feel so, there’s such a joy in this, even in the conversation. And you are smiling all the time. Even when you’re just listening, you’re smiling.
Matt:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s powerful stuff. So the last question is, what do I want?
Sarah:
My answer was rather obvious. It was joy again.
Matt:
More of the same.
Sarah:
More of the same. Well, I, I was aware that there’s quite a lot of time where I’m, yeah. It’s not my, it’s not my foundation. I’m, I’m doing all kinds, you know, I just, for me, and I think many people are the same, I get into thinking that I’ve got to fix everything and it’s all about me. And the minute I make it about me, I get away from my simple blokesse. And I become important in a, in an unhealthy way. The simple bloke thing that’s really important, but it’s in a non kind of aggrandizing way. It doesn’t make you feel like you’re a big person. It just allows you to be you. But I get into this kind of like, oh, I’ve got to do this, I’ve got to do that, and it makes me important. That’s what makes me uncomfortable. And I mean, wow. That’s, it’s really easy to fall into that, especially when you have a business.
Matt:
Absolutely when you have a business. Because you know the, you know, all the old statements about the buck stops with you and you know, it does fundamentally you feel responsible for everything that goes on in the organization and other people see you in that particular light as well. So it’s, it’s quite easy to fall into that, that feeling. What we’re really saying here is that doesn’t have to be that way. It can be something different.
Sarah:
And you know what, the buck stops with you. Yeah. But no one else’s buck really stops with you. It stops with them.
Matt:
Well, I mean, this is the stupid part about it. You know, it’s probably, stupid is the wrong word to use, but if we are saying one of the reasons why we’re going into business in the first place is, is freedom. Because really it’s about a better life because, you know, the work-life balance, control over destiny, you know, the financial security independence, the exploration of entrepreneurial creativity, this is all freedom stuff, right? We’re talking about here. This is all liberating. Yet we end up in this place of feeling like we’re kind of trapped and we don’t let the simple bloke get out and exercise their freedom of what they want to experience of joy.
Sarah:
Well, I just saw the absolute perfection in the, a flash in the entrepreneurial journey for sure. Entrepreneurs are people who’ve come this lifetime to experience freedom. And like we don’t walk into a piece of cake in life normally. We have some pretty significant challenges in order for us to find that thing that we’re here to express and business, like what better challenge could there be for somebody who wants to experience freedom? Because you can create freedom with it. Most of us don’t do a great job of that, but we’re getting better at it. You can, it’s the perfect path, if you like, for each of us to discover our own freedom, but we do seem to do it by making a lot of not very free explorations, detours, shall we say, along the way.
Matt:
That’s so great when I see people push through that process where they come out the other side and, and get the benefit of the, what I say, the guts to have a go and which is to go into business, so to speak. So, you know, I really love seeing that because it can be tough and there’s moments in time when you, you think, is it worth it? I don’t feel free. I feel like I’m the complete opposite to that. And to come out the other side is certainly you know, and some people are quite successful that they never go into that. They’re always able to sort of navigate through that too. So I’ve seen all aspects and all aspects of the way that people deal with it too. And I’ve experienced it all myself and I’ve always also experienced it with other people as well as part of the journey that they’ve been on. And you know, I love the exploration of this conversation because hopefully for people that listen to it, that are either going through elements of it, it might sort of resonate with them about saying, well, actually, where am I in this whole journey? And who am I? And get them to start to think about that because that, there lies the freedom for them.
Sarah:
So I’m very curious about your answer to the last question. What do you want?
Matt:
I want to release the simple bloke more.
Sarah:
Yeah, good. I’m looking forward to getting to know him more. Okay, there is a little bit of a follow-up to this that feels important, which is, what’s the consequence of answering these questions?
Matt:
Yeah. Which is kind of what I said before, but you’ve, you know, going through that now, we’ve articulated it in such a way where you say, what is the consequence? Well, what I see as a consequence is getting what you want or having what you want or becoming what you want, or feeling what you want. So it’s actually the outcome to the things and the reasons why, you know, you are asking these particular questions and pushing, pushing yourself to, to be able to then formulate answers. And then as you say, what are you doing about it and what do you want? So there becomes an outcome to that.
Sarah:
So there’s a kind of circularity in it. It’s almost like who you are is what you want. That, one of the people I did this with, that was the answer that they got. What they, I asked, what do you want? And they said, what I’ve already got, that was so beautiful.
Matt:
Well, actually there’s a television commercial on at the moment, which is, that’s the answer. It’s a, they’re saying, what do I want more of what I’ve got? So it wasn’t just what they’ve got, it’s actually saying more of what I’ve got, which is another concept to it as well.
Sarah:
Yeah. So for me, I realize as I listen to your answers and mine, and I reflect on the ones that I heard from the others in the groups, is that these answers are really the answers to most of our questions. Because if we find that bit first, if you find your simple bloke, can I find my joy? All the other questions that come up, they’ll come up, you know, regular business stuff. What do we do about this? How do we do that? We, how do we go to where we want to go to? They become quite ordinary. And just part of day-to-day, the simple bloke surrounded by a bunch of other simple, whatever we call them, people, you’ll work it out won’t you?
Matt:
Yeah. Exactly. And that’s the power of it.
Sarah:
Yeah. And if there’s joy in me and joy in my business, I think everyone who’s in business with me is pretty interested in experiencing joy. And they’ll have their own things as well, whatever that is. But if that’s there, it doesn’t have to be perfect. I just feel we’re really well-equipped. We all have skills and we get better at things. We keep developing our skills and we will continue to. That’s such a great foundation to build something around.
Matt:
Well, it’s been an amazing conversation, Sarah, and one that I had no idea that we were going to get ourselves into when we started this, you know? And so it’s been great to be able to formulate my answers because I’ve been sort of not been able to get past the first question and thinking that the answer that I have wasn’t the right answer. And trying to explore more. So once you actually get that one right, obviously the rest of them flowed quite naturally from this conversation. So certainly I think it’s been very powerful for me and really enjoyable and glad that we’ve explored it and gone through the process. So thank you so much for firstly challenging me and asking the questions, or, you know, in the last podcast we said, you know, there was a moment of being, you being disturbed and then wanting to ask a deeper question, then formulating those questions, answering those questions, and then obviously pushing me to do the same thing. And I think that that’s, and challenging me to do the same thing. So I think that’s been a great experience. So thank you so much for doing that.
Sarah:
Thank you. It’s genuinely a pleasure. You’ve been listening to the Spirit of Business with Matt Murphy and Sarah McCrum. If you’d like some insight into the spirit in which you do business, a great place to start is by looking at your relationship with money. Find out more by taking the Money scorecard@moneyscorecard.app and we’ll be back next week.
